The Unreadable List of CCCA-approved Classics (An easy-to-fix problem, I think)

Thank you. I’ve had this exact thought that you expressed, so many times.

Better yet, just buy a Pierce Arrow…….since the beginning of the club EVERY Pierce was accepted…….. because Pierce Arrow exclusively manufactured fine motor cars……….not so with most of the others……..

edinmassJul 3, 2023

Better yet, just buy a Pierce Arrow…….since the beginning of the club EVERY Pierce was accepted…….. because Pierce Arrow exclusively manufactured fine motor cars……….not so with most of the others……..

 But just try to buy a 1939 Pierce Arrow or one built after that. They won't even run!

1935PackardJul 4, 2023

 But just try to buy a 1939 Pierce Arrow or one built after that. They won't even run!

They are a FigNewton of your imagination!

1935PackardJul 4, 2023

 But just try to buy a 1939 Pierce Arrow or one built after that. They won't even run!

There are no automobiles built in 1939 or later worth owning! …….ok, maybe five or ten.

1935PackardJul 4, 2023

 But just try to buy a 1939 Pierce Arrow or one built after that. They won't even run!

I have the catalog, which model would you like me to order for you?

Delivery is quite lengthy due to high demand......

Had Pierce been able to launch their proposed, Hayes-bodied junior in 1938, its $1,200 price point still a notch higher than Packard's One-Twenty, the basis for all Packard's products 1939-on other than 446 leftover Twelves,  you wonder if those Pierce-Arrows would be accepted?  Pierce would certainly have phased out their heavy iron as Packard, Cad (downsized, rationalized '36-on), Lincoln mainly "Ford-and-a-half" Zephyrs '36-on.

Rolls-Royce's focus 1935-on was aero engines, most of their fare based on their 1922 "Small HP" 20, itself cribbed from the 1920 Buick.   R-R was annually disassembling a new Buick Limited in the years just before War II to glean the latest Detroit production tips.

  So apples and apples, oranges with oranges.  Good question.  Would 1939-on Pierce-Arrow have been accepted by a club seemingly enamored with size as much as anything, given the CCCA's indifference to most sport cars of the era?  

  Meanwhile, Buick Limiteds but not Roadmasters?  Wheelbase and interior trim.

  Reo Royale 8-35 and 8-52, but not the rare, more manageable 8-31?    Wheelbase.

  Auburn 8s but not equally attractive non-Imperial Chrysler 8s, also with hydraulic brakes, full pressure engines, 1934-on overdrive?

  Railton "Application considered." 

Point well taken about the listing, thanks for clearing that up a bit for all of us.

I was on the CCCA classification committee when I was a member of the national board and still a member of the club.  The same "what if.................." questions are still being discussed, perhaps a lot to do with more cars being recognized so a membership boost could/can  be obtained?

As a member of the classification committee I did the research in original publications and looking at the cars and parts used over several series and came up with some valid reasons to accept/not accept certain series of cars and body styles. It takes time and availability of not only period printed material but comparison of some parts numbers of various makes to see that bodies were/are the same.

It is not just having resource information available but knowing how to use it as a guide to answer the questions and prove that sound judgements can be made. But one needs to be healthy to do that - in body as well as mind....................

edinmassJul 3, 2023

Better yet, just buy a Pierce Arrow…….since the beginning of the club EVERY Pierce was accepted…….. because Pierce Arrow exclusively manufactured fine motor cars……….not so with most of the others……..

Not exactly correct, as they did market a line of 'Travelodge' holiday trailers.   Are they CCCA certified on their own, less a vehicle to tow one?

Craig

8E45EJul 5, 2023

Not exactly correct, as they did market a line of 'Travelodge' holiday trailers.   Are they CCCA certified on their own, less a vehicle to tow one?

Craig

Don't forget Pierce-Arrow trucks and motorcycles!  I think we are quibbling about a misplaced modifier, as I think Ed intended to say that the Pierce-Arrow name was never sullied by placing it on a medium-priced car such as Junior Packards and LZs, NOT that all they made was high-end autos.  Am I right, Ed? 

8E45EJul 5, 2023

Not exactly correct, as they did market a line of 'Travelodge' holiday trailers.   Are they CCCA certified on their own, less a vehicle to tow one?

Craig

As an owner of a Pierce trailer, and had a total of five over the years, I can confirm they can go on the show field at the CCCA. Problem is, they would be judged as an accessory..........so you need to be ready if you're actually showing the car for points.......

As the owner of a Travelodge Model A, I'll mention that an impeccably restored Model B was shown at the PAS annual meet in NY a couple of weeks ago, and it was awarded 1st in the 1936-38 class.

GrimyJul 5, 2023

I think we are quibbling about a misplaced modifier, as I think Ed intended to say that the Pierce-Arrow name was never sullied by placing it on a medium-priced car such as Junior Packards and LZs, NOT that all they made was high-end autos.  Am I right, Ed? 

The Travelodges were in the same caliber as the cars; made of quality materials and built to high standards.  

I am familiar with Pierce-Arrow trucks, but as stated, they were a workhorse, not a luxury conveyance, like cars or the travel trailers.

Craig

8E45EJul 5, 2023

I am familiar with Pierce-Arrow trucks, but as stated, they were a workhorse

I have the steering wheel off a P-A 5? ton truck ( solid tire cab over style) that I bought from Austin Clark, he had the bare chassis remains of the truck parked out under a tree at his museum for decades. That steering wheel was inside the museum in the parts dept. so was in decent shape. I restored it. It is huge 20 inches in diameter , 5 spoke cast iron center. Probably weights about 4 or 5 lbs.

1935PackardJul 3, 2023

Everyone knows there are lots of debates on what cars are CCCA eligible.  This post is about a different question: The completely and unnecessarily confusing way the list of CCCA-approved classics is written.   Take, in particular, the Packard entry.  Here's the CCCA's list of eligible Packards: 

All 1915-1922 6 and 12 cylinder models, except model 116; All 6, 8 and 12 cylinder 1923-1934; All 12 cylinder 1932 through 1939; 1935 and 1936: all 1200-1205 models, 1936 all 1400-1405 models, 1937 all 1500-1502 models, 1938 all 1603-1605 models, 1939 all 1703-1705 models; 1940: all 1803-1808 models; 1941: all 1903-1908 models, plus 160 and 180 Clippers; 1942: all 2003-2008 models, plus 160 and 180 Clippers; 1946-1947: all 2103, 2106, 2126 models; All Darrin Bodied, other custom bodies please apply

If you read this closely, it's a total mess of a description, and it would be very understandable for someone to have no idea if their car or another car was included.   It should instead read something like this: 

1915-1922 all 6 and 12 cylinder models, except model 116; 1923-1934 All 6, 8 and 12 cylinder models; 1935 all 1200 and higher models;  1936 all 1400 and higher models; 1937 all 1500 and higher models, 1938 all 1603 and higher models; 1939 all 1703 and higher models; 1940 all 1803 and higher models;  1941  all 1903 and higher models, plus 160 and 180 Clippers; 1942 all 2003 and higher models, plus 160 and 180 Clippers; 1946-1947 all 2103, 2106, 2126 models; All Darrin Bodied; other custom bodies, please apply.

I would think these sorts of non-substantive changes would be easy to make.  They should be, to help members understand what cars are included and what cars are excluded.

Even better:

1915-1934 all except model 116; 1935-1942 all Super Eights and Twelves; 1941-42  160 and 180 Clippers; 1946-1947 all 2103, 2106, 2126 models; All Darrin Bodied; other custom bodies, please apply.

West PetersonJul 20, 2023

Even better:

1915-1934 all except model 116; 1935-1942 all Super Eights and Twelves; 1941-42  160 and 180 Clippers; 1946-1947 all 2103, 2106, 2126 models; All Darrin Bodied; other custom bodies, please apply.

You forgot 1935 & 1936 Eights.   And I think it should also say all Rollston/Rollson bodied as that covers all those 120 towncars. 

K8096Jul 20, 2023

You forgot 1935 & 1936 Eights.   And I think it should also say all Rollston/Rollson bodied as that covers all those 120 towncars. 

If you really think about it hard... with the addition of all the non-Classics that have been added through the years, it would make more sense to just say.... Packard, ALL

West PetersonJul 20, 2023

If you really think about it hard... with the addition of all the non-Classics that have been added through the years, it would make more sense to just say.... Packard, ALL

Well, they let 61 series Cadillacs and all LaSalles in (including the lowly 50 series) so I’m sure the Packard 120 is next.   So yeah, once that happens they can just say all except the model 110 & 115.   

K8096Jul 20, 2023

Well, they let 61 series Cadillacs and all LaSalles in (including the lowly 50 series) so I’m sure the Packard 120 is next.   So yeah, once that happens they can just say all except the model 110 & 115.   

I don't really get why all the prewar Cadillac's are on the list but not Packards, I assume it's more just a relfection that nobodies ever bothered to apply to get it changed for packards?

HH- Good point.  On one hand, the CCCA is to be commended for sticking with a theme;  what before LA lawyer/Motor Trend columnist Robert J. Gottlieb in 1951 coined "classic cars" all prewar other than immediate postwar continuations.   SUNY Buffalo English prof, longtime member Robert Mehl recounted fellow car mad lads like himself calling such "fine cars" in the late '40s, early '50s.  But that term was more democratic, engulfing any sharp, well-done, well appointed barouche,  a Buick, even certain Fords.   That's the trouble with insularity, certainly ever since a Duesenberg first owned by Greta Garbo became in 1972 the first car to approach $100,000 at public auction.  Suddenly, you had Classic coke, pizza, window and gutter repair.  The Korean War generation thought their Tri-Chevs and T-Birds should be so called,  boomers tired of being in their parents' shadow wanted their "muscle" cars, Mustangs, Camaros and other egregious '60s Motown tin in the fiscal sun.

  Cadillac downsized all their  cars 1936, effectively went "junior," but were clever enough to market them better as Packard's ads, certainly 1939-on, when all their fare other than 446 leftover Twelves junior-based, became shrill.  That the Club now allows all '40s Cadillacs underscores the popularity of HydraMatic-equipped golf carts for an aging membership.   Every piece of sheet metal on a 1941-on Cad is same as Pontiac.  

   However, though most knowledgeable autoholics appreciate craftsmanship, we also fathom machine tools enable consistent quality.  I already commented above on the CCCA's focus on size as much as anything..

Historic perspective goes out the window when ego, nest feathering,  and us/them sully the waters.

    So, where, really, is the line drawn?   Consumer Reports gave the Packard One-Twenty or its Clipper variant their Best Buy rating in its price class every year 1938-47.    So, other than size and "handwork,"  is a given FOB or POE price arbiter?   In the '30s, when Packard cornered through '36 a whopping 42% of the  miniscule  "fine car" field, this was defined as anything above FOB $2,000.

    One thing for certain. 1919 through only immediate postwar continuations of prewar barouches is commendable,  because the young fellows largely in the greater NYC tri-state area founding the CCCA in 1952 were drawn to earlier eras' style, charm, given the current "jelly-bodied clunkers" they and Ken Purdy decried.   Is anyone going to tell us with a straight face a postwar "classic" Chrysler with wood paneling isn't a "jelly-bodied clunker?"   (Conversely, why o why are early '30s Auburn 8s classics, but not equally attractive non-Imperial Chrysler 8s which also had full-pressure oiling, hydraulic brakes, and '34-on, overdrive?)

    So, who draws the line, and more importantly,  why and where?    Letting in lesser fare to increase dwindling membership loses the focus (Walt G.'s comment above).   There are already clubs for every make, including the overarching AACA for all.    

    Pardon the verbiage, but perhaps the Club's future better served by abandoning their expensive rubber chicken Marriott "Grand Classics," at which those with largest trust funds exchange trophies and the other cars mere field fodder to imbue those awards with  meaning, as we all know there's no such thing as a "100-point" car, and Phil Hill remarked seeing "more nice original cars forever ruined for the sake of a few more points at a concours."   

   Meanwhile, in direct reply to '35 Packard's sensible suggestion, why not simply:

                        "1915-47 Packards, all, except Model 116, '37-on six, and One-Twenty, though if custom-bodied, the latter may apply."