That 1924/1925 Era....Duesenberg A and the Locomobile 48......

I would take the Loco.......without thinking about it.

Arguably, the Duesenberg Model A is the least collectible, being far overshadowed by the 1930's Model J.  Locomobile didn't survive long enough to produce anything that was Art Deco in the streamlining era, which would make the 48 more collectible.

A Duesenberg Model A in the ACD Museum here:  https://forum.studebakerdriversclub.com/forum/your-studebaker-forum/stove-huggers-the-non-studebaker-forum/57162-orphan-of-the-day-10-29-1926-duesenberg-model-a

Craig

John,  that towncar has your name on it.

John Bloom
"Guys, I frequent the Locomobile site on this forum and it has gotten me to reading up more about the model 48.  Lots of data and accolades to be impressed with.  I wondered about that era of 1924/1925 how the Duesenberg Model A (before EL Cord was involved) compared to the Locomobile 48 of the same years.   I know one obvious difference was an "Eight vs Six"....but what do those of you with some exposure to these two cars think about the strengths and weaknesses, esthetics, engineering and Coach built offerings of these two great cars.....Were they comparable or am I way misguided???"
 

John:

Without any personal driver's seat time in either make, I'd opine its an 'apples-to-oranges" comparison.   Just consider the specifications:
Locomobile 48: Six cylinder, 524.8 ci, T-head, 95 hp @ 2200 rpm, 142" wb, 5330 lbs, $7,400+
Duesenberg A: straight eight, 259.6 ci, OHC, 90 hp @ 3600 rpm, 134" wb, 3700 lbs, $6,650+ 

The engineering approach for each was very different.  Although both were long stroke, each took its own approach to engine breathing and volumetric efficiency.   The Locomobile 48 engineering might be considered by the mid-1920's to be the perfected 1911 car versus the Duesenberg A which was a progressive harbinger of the future.  Both makes offered an extensive selection of custom and semi-custom body styles by quality coachbuilders so that was a wash.

The concurrent McFarlan Twin-Valve Six and Pierce-Arrow Model 33 were the cars most directly comparable with the Locomobile 48:
McFarlan Twin-Valve Six: six cylinder, 572.5 ci, T-head, 120 hp @ 2400 rpm, 140" wb, 5000 lbs, $5,700+
Pierce-Arrow Model 33: six cylinder, 414.7 ci, T-head, 100 hp @ 2600 rpm, 138" wb, 4800 lbs, $5,250+

The Cunningham Series V would also be in this segment:
Cunningham Series V-5 & V-6: V-Type, eight cylinder, 441.7 ci, , L-Head, 90 hp @ 2400 rpm, 132/142" wb, 5000 lbs, $6,650+

In the current parlance, the Locomobile 48, McFarlan Twin-Valve Six, Pierce-Arrow 33 and possibly the Cunningham V would be cross-shopped.  The Duesenberg A considered a different type appropriate for the 'sportsman'.

Let the brickbats fly...
Steve
 

I agree with what John has stated. Have never driven a Duesenberg Model A, but spent some time behind the wheel of a Locomobile from the early to mid 1920s era - a big sedan/limousine that basically had a cosmetic restoration done in the 1960s. Locomobile was a BIG car - well made, and lots of power, even with the enclosed coachwork. My choice would be the Locomobile ( but saying that I am in the middle of working on a design/styling /coach builders history - of the 1914- 1929 Locomobiles so am impressed with what I see in my research).

alsancleOct 28, 2021

John,  that towncar has your name on it.

I am at the office right now but I will have to circle back when I have a little bit more time on my hands to write what I really want. The short term version is, I would love to buy that towncar, but I think my level of experience in the hobby restoration wise/mechanically with a small production number car of this era is just not at the level of some of you guys and without a wing man or mentor with a lot of free time, I fear I would get in over my head and be hopelessly lost. I could write 10 pages more but that’s the short version.

it was the last thing in my head before I fell asleep last night....... 

I could be an enthusiastic cheerleader for you AJ if you’d pull the trigger. 
 

John, it’s quite simple. Ed is very susceptible to anyone that kisses his fanny. Just be nice to him and ship in the car with the keys and plates. You’ll get it back in for five years but it will be running great. Also you’ll get to see pictures of it and lots of great places on Facebook.

How many hamburger restoration is that (just to figure out the budget)?

Hamburgers?  Yum but Ed is now strictly a prime rib guy...

Looking for John's extended post...

alsancleOct 28, 2021

John,  that towncar has your name on it.

Steve_Mack_CTOct 29, 2021

Hamburgers?  Yum but Ed is now strictly a prime rib guy...

Looking for John's extended post...

OK Steve, you asked for it..................

I have been a car lover since about age 12, started getting heavy influence in the teen years from a family in the neighborhood with a son my age that I was friends with.  Lots of 50's American sedans and coupes, and some british stuff.   An education in the muscle niche, and several MG/Alfa/Porsche/ smaller sports cars as well as older corvettes.  About 6-7 years ago, I started waking up to the Classic era and reading and learning.  It has my full attention now. 

I really like some of the mainstream stuff (Packard, Cadillacs, etc....), but I am drawn to some of the smaller independents, in particular those US companies that built at the top of the market.  That Locomobile towncar, checks so many boxes and I'd love to take the plunge.  But, a man must know his limitations.  At this point in time, I'm the wrong guy.  I have never tackled the systems needing help that this car would require.  Sourcing parts, sourcing the right person to properly fix things that are beyond me, THE TIME to make consistent progress on it.  I have never tackled wood framed cars, completely redoing an interior, correctly sorting through an engine like that.  I see a high likelihood that I'd be in over my head.  The reality of this doesn't stop me from thinking about this car (and others like it), but for now, I am sure I'm not the guy to pull the trigger.  I may regret it someday.  There are guys on here who have played in this market for many years, learning from their mistakes and successes.  They are better equipped to take on a project like this.  

I would love the research and stategy/planning for a project like this.  So much to learn from others who could take this on and post their trials and tribulations as they formulate the plan and start working through the line items of it.  

Ed was very good about posting the tasks and challenges every few days as he worked through the Great White.  I wish I could ride along reading and learning while someone did a similar restoration/awakening of this Locomobile while actively posting updates.  

Who's going to step up and buy this thing?  Steve?  AJ?

Ha not me but I will cheer on the person who does take the challenge on.  

John,  I'm a talker not a buyer!

I understand where you are coming from.   I'm attracted to the not seen every day stuff too. 

58L-Y8Oct 28, 2021

John Bloom
"Guys, I frequent the Locomobile site on this forum and it has gotten me to reading up more about the model 48.  Lots of data and accolades to be impressed with.  I wondered about that era of 1924/1925 how the Duesenberg Model A (before EL Cord was involved) compared to the Locomobile 48 of the same years.   I know one obvious difference was an "Eight vs Six"....but what do those of you with some exposure to these two cars think about the strengths and weaknesses, esthetics, engineering and Coach built offerings of these two great cars.....Were they comparable or am I way misguided???"
 

John:

Without any personal driver's seat time in either make, I'd opine its an 'apples-to-oranges" comparison.   Just consider the specifications:
Locomobile 48: Six cylinder, 524.8 ci, T-head, 95 hp @ 2200 rpm, 142" wb, 5330 lbs, $7,400+
Duesenberg A: straight eight, 259.6 ci, OHC, 90 hp @ 3600 rpm, 134" wb, 3700 lbs, $6,650+ 

The engineering approach for each was very different.  Although both were long stroke, each took its own approach to engine breathing and volumetric efficiency.   The Locomobile 48 engineering might be considered by the mid-1920's to be the perfected 1911 car versus the Duesenberg A which was a progressive harbinger of the future.  Both makes offered an extensive selection of custom and semi-custom body styles by quality coachbuilders so that was a wash.

The concurrent McFarlan Twin-Valve Six and Pierce-Arrow Model 33 were the cars most directly comparable with the Locomobile 48:
McFarlan Twin-Valve Six: six cylinder, 572.5 ci, T-head, 120 hp @ 2400 rpm, 140" wb, 5000 lbs, $5,700+
Pierce-Arrow Model 33: six cylinder, 414.7 ci, T-head, 100 hp @ 2600 rpm, 138" wb, 4800 lbs, $5,250+

The Cunningham Series V would also be in this segment:
Cunningham Series V-5 & V-6: V-Type, eight cylinder, 441.7 ci, , L-Head, 90 hp @ 2400 rpm, 132/142" wb, 5000 lbs, $6,650+

In the current parlance, the Locomobile 48, McFarlan Twin-Valve Six, Pierce-Arrow 33 and possibly the Cunningham V would be cross-shopped.  The Duesenberg A considered a different type appropriate for the 'sportsman'.

Let the brickbats fly...
Steve
 

Steve, thanks for your insight and comments.  The more I read, the more I can see how the Big Pierce Arrows of that day were a direct competitor.   So let me ask relative to these "peers" of the Locomobile 48.  Are they a "value" relative to their peers?  what have you guys seen in their price point between private sales and auction prices in the last few years?  

John BloomOct 31, 2021

Steve, thanks for your insight and comments.  The more I read, the more I can see how the Big Pierce Arrows of that day were a direct competitor.   So let me ask relative to these "peers" of the Locomobile 48.  Are they a "value" relative to their peers?  what have you guys seen in their price point between private sales and auction prices in the last few years?  

John:

Those who own and/or have had experience will provide the best perspective regarding relative value of each make to its peers.    I surmise the Pierce-Arrow 33 and 36, due to their higher production numbers, would the easiest to source.  Ed may know what the production of those models were during the Model 80 and 81 concurrent production years.     Both Locomobile with its Billy Durant-mass-market Junior 8, 8-66 and 8-70 and McFarlan entry-level luxury SV and Line 8 make determining how potentially available the Model 48's and the Twin Valve Six are difficult.   Locomobile also fielded the Model 90 which is an impressive and worthwhile choice to consider as well, though not on the same par as the Model 48.

One make I omitted in the prior comparison was the Steven-Duryea Model G but those are probably completely unobtainium...

Steve  

Hello John (and others sitting on the sideline), If I were to council anyone with an interest in old collectable high end automobiles, that council would be to jump when opportunity calls.  You make several good points, but to me not in a serious way.  One analogy is; how do people with race horses know where the race tracks are.  Simple, they network.  John and others, you are networking with the right crowd right here to find the resources and expertise needed to take on a high end automobile.  I do not suggest that we need to leave all the good stuff to the perceived heavy hitters of the hobby.  We all are or can be equal heavy hitters, we just need to jump when opportunity knocks and I tell you what, opportunity is knocking at the door regarding the Locomobile town car listed elsewhere in the Locomobile forum.  The Demarest Limousine also spoken of elsewhere was my entrance into the big automobile niche (and one that I could afford).  A good share of my investment will be in sweat equity which idea I am a firm believer in.  Maybe, we as a group of hobbyists have moved to far away from sweat equity which mindset has relegated many potential high end automobile projects to parts car status.  That is a sad mindset for the future generations of this great hobby we have here.  Lastly, I had a very nice chat with the helper on the subject Locomobile of this chat and feel that a straight forward agreement can be had.  John or anyone else, with a warm big automobile thought or dream, now is your chance to dance or simply sit on the sideline.  If I was not already dancing, I know what I would be doing.......asking for the next dance with this Locomobile.

Al

Oh yes, everyone has a (2 cent) opinion. I will share a bit of my thoughts as to comparisons spoken of above.  I don't feel the Pierce-Arrow 33 or 36 are the best comparison with the Locomobile 48 or other large vintage automobiles.  P-A had already begun a different direction for their future which was less size with modern design values and a precursor to the soon to be adopted 8's.  They, P-A, were then more able to compete with and stay at top of the mainstream evolving market that included Cadillac, Packard, Lincoln and others.  Locomobile would soon be gone, but rein on top, the marque did, with the 48 until it was gone to history.

(Ok 5 cents)

Al

I would love to write a five page comment....but don't have the time. As a Pierce Arrow nut, I will state the Series 33 & 36 were nothing like the earlier cars....for a bunch of reasons. As I wouldn't ever compare a 33 or 36 to the earlier Pierce cars......I think that comparing the Loco 48 to a Pierce 33 or 36 isn't an apples to apples comparison.  I'll get killed here........but in my humble opinion, the 33 & 36 series cars were not as well done as the earlier cars........and their price and following certainly prove it to a certain point. The special hand made over the top Pierce Arrow ended just after WWI, and EVERYTHING that followed was a good or great car........NOT fantastic like the earlier stuff. This situation happened to all the manufacturers between 1915 and 1922............where luxury marques went from hand built products that only had craftsman's hands on them, to more run of the mill assembled cars done in much more volume. The 48 Loco lasted a LONG time, way past it's prime......but it was and is a fantastic platform, even when dated. The big cars from 1916-1923 fall in a funny hole of collecting.......Crane Simplex, Pierce, Packard Twin Six, Cunningham, Springfield Ghost, and the like were all stuck in the past, hanging on longer than they should, and 95 percent of them never made it out of the 1920's. It is a small spot of the hobby which many people don't understand, and miss out on because clubs and tours generally leave them out........that is now changing......for several reasons. 

edinmassNov 2, 2021

I would love to write a five page comment....but don't have the time. As a Pierce Arrow nut, I will state the Series 33 & 36 were nothing like the earlier cars....for a bunch of reasons. As I wouldn't ever compare a 33 or 36 to the earlier Pierce cars......I think that comparing the Loco 48 to a Pierce 33 or 36 isn't an apples to apples comparison........but in my humble opinion, the 33 & 36 series cars were not as well done as the earlier cars........and their price and following certainly prove it to a certain point. The special hand made over the top Pierce Arrow ended just after WWI, and EVERYTHING that followed was a good or great car.

Arguably, the one exception would be those five 1933 Silver Arrows. They were all basically hand-built, and showcased all the innovations Pierce Arrow had to offer up until that time.  It should be noted those were produced when PA was still owned by Studebaker, who was 'in receivership' when those cars were making the rounds at the auto shows.  Studebaker sold off PA to a group of businessmen to raise capital, and concentrate on their own brand of cars, which proved successful, and pulled them out of receivership by the end of 1935.   A few of Silver Arrow design cues were made to the 1934 model line, including the 4-piece rear window, and the streamlined frontal appearance, but none of the subsequent models ever match those 5 Silver Arrows for sheer opulence.

Craig

Hello Craig,

You are certainly correct with your term of "opulence" when describing the P-A Silver Arrow.  By the mid 1930's the dynasty of the 48's both P-A and Locomobile was over.  Sadly for Locomobile, it was all over.  The mid 30's P-A set a sturdy high standard among the so called classic era automobiles, that is hard to get past including for sure the Silver Arrow.  I also own one of the P-A big hitters from 1935, it being a 1255.  The 30's we're a very different time than the 20's and each era surely has the high points to enjoy.

Al

Al, I was going to Wright something similar to Craig. The Pierce 12 is the best twelve of the Classic era, and is a top five platform from the era.......problem is many of the factory bodies can be a bit stodgy, some....not all. Fact is a Pierce 12 is one of the few cars that will comfortably run with a Model J........ There are a small handful of one off custom Pierce 12 in existence..........and they are all stunning.