CCCA and Radial Tires

I’ll sign in and check the rules posted on line. I can’t imagine that they are allowed in judging........I expect it would be a mandatory deduction, and if it were up to me, a disqualification. Rims pre war are not made to handle radial tire stress.......and failure in them is common with radials. Michelin stopped manufacturing the tires for the big classics......for a reason.

Still a deduction in judging.........I’m a master judge.......and I would hammer the car for having them, probably two points per tire..........so that’s a ten or twelve point hit to start with.......

I would save you from getting hammered by Ed by not allowing you on the field.  

alsancleSep 6, 2021

I would save you from getting hammered by Ed by not allowing you on the field.  

I'm just a purist........minus one point each for radials, and one point for what in my opinion is a safety issue. If you had proof of new wheels with more metal on them, I would only take one point per tire. Since I no longer judge......there is no reason to try and keep me or the car off the field. 

I'm known as a tough judge and the guys at CCCA events don't like me judging their cars. I've had one complaint where the guy even asked me to be removed because, "He (meaning me) won't give me 100 points," (which I wouldn't--I don't believe in the 100-point car). However, I have been corrected multiple times by the head judge when deducting for radials. For years they were a deduction but about six years ago they seemed to allow them due to "safety issues" (which I suspect was provoked by a specific group of guys who wanted their cake and to eat it, too). That Yumpu.com version up above is the 2009 manual--the 2019 manual makes radials permissible, although the car wreck that is the CCCA website only has 1/3 of the manual published so I can't verify it in print.

I personally believe that if correct tires are available you should use them if you want all the points, but then again I've heard judges say, "Well, he spent $200,000 on the restoration, so he should probably get 100 points," and call it done. 

Matt HarwoodSep 6, 2021

I personally believe that if correct tires are available you should use them if you want all the points, but then again I've heard judges say, "Well, he spent $200,000 on the restoration, so he should probably get 100 points," and call it done. 

We need an emoji for "aaarrrggghhh!!!"

Matt HarwoodSep 6, 2021

I'm known as a tough judge and the guys at CCCA events don't like me judging their cars. I've had one complaint where the guy even asked me to be removed because, "He (meaning me) won't give me 100 points," (which I wouldn't--I don't believe in the 100-point car). However, I have been corrected multiple times by the head judge when deducting for radials. For years they were a deduction but about six years ago they seemed to allow them due to "safety issues" (which I suspect was provoked by a specific group of guys who wanted their cake and to eat it, too). That Yumpu.com version up above is the 2009 manual--the 2019 manual makes radials permissible, although the car wreck that is the CCCA website only has 1/3 of the manual published so I can't verify it in print.

I personally believe that if correct tires are available you should use them if you want all the points, but then again I've heard judges say, "Well, he spent $200,000 on the restoration, so he should probably get 100 points," and call it done. 

200k is cheap.

judging is tough because someone is always mad at you.

Maybe I should judge again.........I would take off for radials..........and if the club doesn't allow it under tires, I WILL find a place to make the adjustment. There is ZERO reason for a radial tire pre war. I had the conversation with Mr. Leno a few weeks ago on his radial tires on his J. He said he liked to drive fast..........me too, and it's safe to do on bias tires that are well maintained. On any car, the rims scare me ten times more than ANY tire issue. Wheel failure now is approaching an every day event on tours I attend. I would estimate that 75 percent of the cars I work on now have replacement wheels.........just for safety.

Ed, in fairness there is a specific issue with Model J wheels.  They have all been restored 6 times and are weak from it.   Also, the engine puts a tremendous amount of stress on everything else.

What about Cadillac steel wheels cracking (1937-1941)......Like you see on Cord’s? (810-812) And they fail with bias ply, just imagine how the factory wheels would handle radials.  I could also mention Cadillac snap ring wheels...........that haven’t been chromed. I have seen two 17 inch Pierce artillery wheels crack that had Michelin radials on them for less than 1000 miles. Personally, I don’t like to gamble, and any rim made for a radial tire has more steel (read engineering also) than a bias ply rim. Would you trust radial tires on your fathers Darrin? Implying trust in the wheels? I wouldn’t .........with factory rims......those god awful aftermarket things on it are probably three times heavier than pre war stuff.........but that’s what happens when you chrome dump truck wheels and install them on an early car.
 

Nuff said..........

Thanks for your input on this.  I've downloaded the CCCA 2019 Judges Manual (19 pages).  Under tires, there is no specific mention of radial tires but that tires must be of the correct size.  To me, this says that a radial tire would receive a deduction based on incorrect size.

"-2 to -4 Tire size or Mismatched Tires. Tires that are larger or smaller or of the wrong size designation series warrant a deduction here. But be careful, some of the auto makers offered optional sizes including the “balloon tires” in the 20’s and 30’s. Mismatching may be either by size, brand, width of sidewall, or black and white tires on the same car"

I think keeping in spirit of what was available new is fair. Most modern tires available are oversize to begin with. Appropriate style tread and sidewalls are an important part of a cars presentation........tires too large or small look foolish......as do MOST radials on early cars. My main point, in countless miles on early cars.........I have never had radials on any car.........and have had zero issues. Most people are asking for radials because their cars steer like shit......from lack of proper service and alignment. I’m constantly amazed after putting in fifty hours in a steering system how good any car is.....cheap or expensive. The old myth that they all steer like a truck is pure bs. 

edinmassSep 6, 2021

Most people are asking for radials because their cars steer like shit......from lack of proper service and alignment.

And for many with post war cars, they want to run them because they are much cheaper even though they won't admit that is the reason.

61polaraSep 6, 2021

And for many with post war cars, they want to run them because they are much cheaper even though they won't admit that is the reason.

Interestingly, on old car tires I almost never consider price.......appropriate look and style are number one. Performance is second. Tubes and flaps, hell.........price on big car tires is about the bottom of the list.....and most are within ten bucks of the others that cross over. 

I just bought 8 20/21-700 tubes and flaps.  Cost from England with shipping in a private jet was $616.00.

Ouch.

I stopped judging in CCCA after nearly being involved in a fist fight with an exhibitor who swore his '32 Dues never had headlights that could be dimmed from the factory.

alsancleSep 7, 2021

I just bought 8 20/21-700 tubes and flaps.  Cost from England with shipping in a private jet was $616.00.

Ouch.

Post photos of the tubes when they arrive......

I paid almost a grand for 7 tubes on my 1917 White.........with standard shipping. Things are getting rediculous.