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With all due respect......way too many cars have been added to the list since 1986..........and the club was for EXCLUSIVELY high end cars when founded. You can make an argument that Auburn’s should not have been let in at all. That said, they let the 41 Cadillacs in, and things stayed stable for a very long time. As the founding fathers died off, the new generation of officers in the club let in stuff that should have never been considered. The cat is out of the bag. A series 61 Cadillac is not much of a car............just like the Chrysler Town and Country’s were middle of the road platforms that were too modern, and mediocre. They got expensive, and that’s how they got their way in. Another bad choice. I have opinions of the Buick’s, but will withhold them................and, for the record I like all cars. I have a Ford T parked next to my Pierce 12. But just too many cars have been let into the CCCA. It has not and never will add to the membership of the club............all it has done is take an exclusive organization and dilute it into something it was never meant to be. And for the record.......I knew many of the founders very well.......including the one that is still living at 105 years old. I am the youngest life member in the history of the CCCA.........as you must have ten consecutive years before you can apply for a life membership. I became a life member in my 20’s.
Aug 1, 2020With all due respect......way too many cars have been added to the list since 1986..........and the club was for EXCLUSIVELY high end cars when founded. You can make an argument that Auburn’s should not have been let in at all. That said, they let the 41 Cadillacs in, and things stayed stable for a very long time. As the founding fathers died off, the new generation of officers in the club let in stuff that should have never been considered. The cat is out of the bag. A series 61 Cadillac is not much of a car............just like the Chrysler Town and Country’s were middle of the road platforms that were too modern, and mediocre. They got expensive, and that’s how they got their way in. Another bad choice. I have opinions of the Buick’s, but will withhold them................and, for the record I like all cars. I have a Ford T parked next to my Pierce 12. But just too many cars have been let into the CCCA. It has not and never will add to the membership of the club............all it has done is take an exclusive organization and dilute it into something it was never meant to be. And for the record.......I knew many of the founders very well.......including the one that is still living at 105 years old. I am the youngest life member in the history of the CCCA.........as you must have ten consecutive years before you can apply for a life membership. I became a life member in my 20’s.
Eddy, you know I've been a diehard hold the line guy from day one. But if they let in the Packard 120, they should absolutely let in the Century. Hopefully you and I will be long gone by the time they get around to accepting the Model A Ford.
Aug 1, 2020Eddy, you know I've been a diehard hold the line guy from day one. But if they let in the Packard 120, they should absolutely let in the Century. Hopefully you and I will be long gone by the time they get around to accepting the Model A Ford.
Aug 1, 2020EdinMass: When I was 14 (1952) I was interested in the CCCA and read every one of the columns about Classic Cars in Motor Trend. I bought his books, but the day he said no Buick was ever a Classic car I lost interest for many, many years. I joined AACA in 1962 and went on to become a Life Member, National President in 2004, and served 15 years on the National Board. In 1973, 74 or 75 I convinced both the AACA and CCCA to accept the 1931-1942 Buick 90 as a Classic Car. I agree with everything you said about the club being meant for only exclusive cars, and there were many besides big Packards. I'm not arguing for the Century, unless you put it up against those other cars they mentioned in the Bulletin, but I am arguing that Buick should never have been pushed into the background, and shouldn't be again..................if and when the Lincoln Zephyr, Cadillac 61 or Packard 120 are accepted, and I'm not saying that I'm for that either.
I agree the BIG Buick's are classics.......hell, they are better drivers than the Cadillac's! I just think they should have held the line on the series 90. I understand the 80 is very close. BUT REMEMBER, Cadillac kept complaining that the big Buicks were digging into their sales territory. The subject became a problem in 31-32 and then again later in the 30's. Sloan had to tell the Buick devision to knock it off. The big series Buicks are one of the most misunderstood and under valued cars you can buy. I like them, and have driven many of them............will make you want to light your Cadillac V-8 on fire.
This has come up before and it'll come up again. This is just the board grasping at straws in the face of dwindling interest in the club and shrinking finances. They are under the misguided notion that adding cars will also add members, which isn't really sound logic. I don't believe any of the cars on the proposed list should be admitted, and even though I'm very grateful to my friend Earl's untiring efforts, I'm not entirely convinced the Series 70 Buicks belong there, either and certainly not the Century. 80/90 cars, sure, but the rest aren't in the same league. Also bear in mind that I actually own a Century, and becoming a Full Classic would make it more valuable overnight.
And seriously, the Packard 120? This car? Next to a 1934 Twelve Dietrich dual cowl phaeton at a Grand Classic? Pffft.
By going downmarket, the club will also have to confront another facet of the hobby that many other clubs are completely unable to handle: modified cars.
Up until now, very few Full Classics were turned into hot rods simply because they are typically more valuable and desirable in restored condition, and the guys who built them didn't particularly care about the CCCA. But there are thousands of modified Buick Centurys, cheap Cadillacs, and Packard 120s out there. Will you let those cars into the club? Will they create a modified division to accommodate them (hell, they could be dues-paying members--isn't that the goal?)? You'd better brace yourselves, because a WHOLE BUNCH of those guys are going to crash the party. Are you going to let them in and take their money to expand the club roster and fatten the coffers or are you going to reinforce the already heavily skewed perception that the CCCA is the rich snob club?
Are you ready for this?
Or this?
Or this?
Or this, which is fiberglass but is nevertheless titled as a 1939 Lincoln Zephyr?
No. No you are not. You won't put up with those guys any more than you like staying at the Holiday Inn and eating at restaurants where they don't force you to wear a jacket.
The problem isn't finding different cars with different owners who want to join the club. This club's problem is accessibility. I'm actively involved with the hobby, the CCCA (I write the goddamned magazine for the second biggest region), I served on the board of directors for a decade, and Melanie and I organize events for the club and our region. I make a good living and own three Full Classics, yet I still can't afford to attend most national-level CCCA events. Hotels that are $500/night? $250/plate meals with two kids who won't eat anything but cheeseburgers and mac-n-cheese? Mandatory packaging of tour expenses so that a five-day car tour with a family of four costs $10,000 or we skip everything but the driving and eat fast food in the parking lot when everyone else is inside at the expensive restaurant or enjoying the pay-to-play tour stop?
If the board is wondering why nobody wants to play with them, it's because they don't care to make it accessible to people with jobs and lives and kids, which is almost everybody in the world. When my family has arrived for CCCA national events, we've been asked to leave because they don't want our kids there. I've taken my 1941 Buick Limited to a Grand Classic and been told to park it in the lot around back because it's not a "Full Classic" (although I would bet that a Packard 120 could slide in even today simply because most members only recognize the Packard grille shell and don't care what it's attached to). We've taken our kids to CCCA awards banquets and sat for three HOURS waiting to eat while everyone got drunk and food service started at 10 PM. These are most certainly NOT family-friendly events and I do not believe they were ever intended to be.
Want to bring in new members, younger members (I'm 50 and I'm by far the youngest guy at most events), paying members, people who will continue the club into the future? Stop being the club for wealthy white people who specifically design all the events to keep everyone else out like a country club. Sure, a multi-millionaire won't sweat the expense of a $15,000 tour. Good luck keeping everything going once all those guys are gone. Old, rich, and white isn't the future of anything. But old, rich, and white IS the club. They like what they like, they want what they want, and they're willing to ride it all downhill into the abyss because, hey, fark it, they'll all be dead before any of what they're doing matters anyway and wow, didn't they have a grand time?
You don't need to bring in less expensive cars to expand the club, there are plenty of affordable Full Classics already. You need to make being an active participant in the club itself less expensive and more welcoming to younger people and families with limited time and finances.
Period.
But I think we all know exactly what the club won't do.
Aug 1, 2020This has come up before and it'll come up again. This is just the board grasping at straws in the face of dwindling interest in the club and shrinking finances. They are under the misguided notion that adding cars will also add members, which isn't really sound logic. I don't believe any of the cars on the proposed list should be admitted, and even though I'm very grateful to my friend Earl's untiring efforts, I'm not entirely convinced the Series 70 Buicks belong there, either and certainly not the Century. 80/90 cars, sure, but the rest aren't in the same league. Also bear in mind that I actually own a Century, and becoming a Full Classic would make it more valuable overnight.
And seriously, the Packard 120? This car? Next to a 1934 Twelve Dietrich dual cowl phaeton at a Grand Classic? Pffft.
By going downmarket, the club will also going to have to confront another facet of the hobby that many other clubs are completely unable to handle: modified cars.
Up until now, very few Full Classics were turned into hot rods simply because they are typically more valuable and desirable in restored condition, and the guys who built them didn't particularly care about the CCCA. But there are thousands of modified Buick Centurys, cheap Cadillacs, and Packard 120s out there. Will you let those cars into the club? Will you have to create a modified division to accommodate them (hell, they could be dues-paying members--isn't that the goal?)? You'd better brace yourselves, because a WHOLE BUNCH of those guys are going to crash the party. Are you going to let them in and take their money to expand the club roster and fatten the coffers or are you going to reinforce the already heavily skewed perception that the CCCA is the rich snob club?
Are you ready for this?
Or this?
Or this?
Or this, which is fiberglass but is nevertheless titled as a 1939 Lincoln Zephyr?
No. No you are not. You won't put up with those guys any more than you like staying at the Holiday Inn and eating at restaurants where they don't force you to wear a jacket.
The problem isn't finding different cars with different owners who want to join the club. This club's problem is accessibility. I'm actively involved with the hobby, the CCCA (I write the goddamned magazine for the second biggest region), I served on the board of directors for a decade, and Melanie and I organize events for the club and our region. I make a good living and own three Full Classics, yet I still can't afford to attend most national-level CCCA events. Hotels that are $500/night? $250/plate meals with two kids who won't eat anything but cheeseburgers and mac-n-cheese? Mandatory packaging of tour expenses so that a five-day car tour with a family of four costs $10,000 or we skip everything but the driving and eat fast food in the parking lot when everyone else is inside at the expensive restaurant or enjoying the pay-to-play tour stop?If the board is wondering why nobody wants to play with them, it's because they don't care to make it accessible to people with jobs and lives and kids, which is almost everybody in the world. When my family has arrived for CCCA national events, we've been asked to leave because they don't want our kids there. I've taken my 1941 Buick Limited to a Grand Classic and been told to park it in the lot around back because it's not a "Full Classic" (although I would bet that a Packard 120 could slide in even today simply because most members only recognize the Packard grille shell and don't care what it's attached to). We've taken our kids to CCCA awards banquets and sat for three HOURS waiting to eat while everyone got drunk and food service started at 10 PM. These are most certainly NOT family-friendly events and I do not believe they were ever intended to be.
Want to bring in new members, younger members (I'm 50 and I'm by far the youngest guy at most events), paying members, people who will continue the club into the future? Stop being the club for wealthy white people who specifically design all the events to keep everyone else out like a country club. Sure, a multi-millionaire won't sweat the expense of a $15,000 tour. Good luck keeping everything going once all those guys are gone. Old, rich, and white isn't the future of anything. But old, rich, and white IS the club. They like what they like, they want what they want, and they're willing to ride it all downhill into the abyss because, hey, fark it, they'll all be dead before any of what they're doing matters anyway and wow, didn't they have a grand time?
You don't need to bring in less expensive cars to expand the club, there are plenty of affordable Full Classics already. You need to make being an active participant in the club itself less expensive and more welcoming to younger people and families with limited time and finances.
Period.
But I think we all know exactly what the club won't do.
In reply, I only wish to mention that AACA, with which I have vastly more experience, accepts all of mentioned cars and many more, and has for years. However, sofar over a long period of time, they have kept hotrods out of their National activities. That said, their "Driver's Class" can come pretty close. And, also, when I was young, modified cars could not belong to a Region club and/or participate in any Region club activity, and that has changed in every Region club. AACA came close one time with a disputed Class 37, but after much clamor it was withdrawn. All of that said, Matt may very well be right. The tide probably can't be blocked at the shore only but so long. I do disagree abut the 1941 Series 70. I don't know about the 1940, but you can't skip a year. The 1941 Series 70 was virtually the same car as 1941 Cadillac but with a more powerful engine and more advanced engine technology. In truth, the 1942 Buick 70 was also met the same plateau; however, I've always believed in going for the stars and let someone else worry about the satellites. You can't just pick and choose. If a decision is wrong, it's all wrong and vice versa. Various cars were on the same plateau of price and quality and should all be considered and accepted or not accepted.
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Aug 1, 2020And seriously, the Packard 120? This car? Next to a 1934 Twelve Dietrich dual cowl phaeton at a Grand Classic? Pffft.
You don't need to bring in less expensive cars to expand the club, there are plenty of affordable Full Classics already. You need to make being an active participant in the club itself less expensive and more welcoming to younger people and families with limited time and finances.
Individual Dietrich next to much lesser cars already happens.
Seems to me that they must hold the line and become smaller, and I don’t think there is anything wrong with that choice if it can be sustained. I don’t believe the classification changes in the last twenty years moved the needle at all. They seem to think that they did not change enough? Do they think that if they let in the series61 Cadillac 20 years ago they would not be in this position? I still think they would be.
otherwise they should just change the mission and the name of the club to the Classic era Car Club of America. CeCCA. All cars 1917-1947
Matt has succinctly pinpointed the CCCA membership problem, accessibility for those of less-than millionaire status willing to accommodate the exclusive country club game that's on offer. Broadening the approved list of car is going to do nothing to rectify that situation.
Additionally, I was a member for 28 years, found with only a couple exceptions a dismissive and condescending attitude by other CCCA member when my situation wasn't on their financial or social level. Someone needs to emphasize that every club member is an ambassador for the club, too many of their member are very poor ambassadors for that club in their attitude toward others. No one expects CCCA members to fall all over themselves when they meet another member but a bit of common decency would be nice.l
Since it is such a common complaint about the club there must be some truth to it but most of the guys I know don't qualify as millionaires, let alone multi ones. Now the clique thing is probably very true and we all need to go out of our way to welcome anyone new that stupid enough to get involved with cars.
Aug 6, 2020When the CCCA Grand was in Baltimore I wanted to attend a few events that my young Son and Wife might enjoy, including a reception in the roundhouse of the B&O railroad. Those few events would have cost us over $1000 with us driving from home every day. $1000 was way too much money for a young family just starting a business. But I agree, the club has been watered down to where "What's the point?" in keeping our membership other than a nice magazine.
It is expensive. That is a legit complaint and definitely not as kid friendly as it should be. The magazines have always been GREAT and Jonathan Sierakowski taking over the publications I would expect them to stay that way. I also have high hopes for Steve Babinsky as President. I have always had good interactions with him.