Lincoln KA/KB

You are correct that the fork and blade V12 was only available as a KB in '32 and 33. My understanding is that the 381.7 cid V-12 introduced in '33 was not at all like the KB, but once bored out to 414 cid in '34 matched the bigger fork and blade version at 150 hp. I'm not enough of an expert to give you the pros and cons of the two different styles of V-12s.

Interesting. Never knew about the Dietrich sport sedan on the Lincoln chassis. Looks like it's in mid restoration???

There's a very, very nice KB victoria coupe for sale in the latest issue of the CCCA Bulletin.... For about a third of the cost of what it would take to restore the one in your original post. Plus, it's a KB vs a KA.

I have to agree with you. It's an extremely good design. Much, much nicer and classier looking than a general 2-passenger coupe.

I agree. A 1932 KA Victoria is a great looking car. Here is a link to one I sold awhile back to a very enthusiastic buyer in Europe. I wish I could have kept this one for my own collection!

http://forums.aaca.org/topic/200101-1932-lincoln-ka-five-passenger-victoria-coupe/

I'm not surprised A.J. would appreciate the most elegantly-styled sport sedan of all KB Lincolns!  The Model 240 Sport Berline by Dietrich, of which only eight were built, was the one that got away from Packard.  Look closely at the lower body and you'll see its the same as the Packard V-windshield Individual Custom Dietrich bodies.  The victoria-coupe style rear bustle wasn't seen on Packards, though should have been.  Best part is they retained the convertible-style half-door, thin chrome window frames lending a lightness not even seen on the Car of the Dome. The flat windshield was probably done simply to differentiate the style from the Packards.  With its metal roof and lower convertible body structure, if the B-pillar was removable, it would be a nascent four door hardtop decades before they came to the general market.

Of the KA Lincoln Victoria coupe, both it and the REO Royale being Murray bodies, they benefitted from the fine aesthetic touch of both Amos Northup and Ray Dietrich.   Ray Dietrich was certainly still with the company when these were being developed, would have had much input in their designs. 

Steve

Hi West

Does anyone know what date during 1931 Ray Dietrich left after the final set to with Clarence Avery?  Most histories report it was during 1932 at the NYAC that Walter Chrysler offered him a position as body design consultant.   Certainly Ray left dozens of sketches and developed design work that Murray lunched off for another three years plus.   Amos Northup knew well not to heavily rework those as he knew quality work.   He must have been mostly occupied with production car projects at the time.

Chrysler body engineering mostly frustrated Dietrich and wasted his talents, and frankly their cars suffered for it.   Too bad WPC didn't back up Dietrich like Alfred Sloan did for Misterl and Edsel Ford did for E.T. Gregorie.

Steve

I have always been confused by the time line with the "Dietrich" bodied cars that Packard sold as catalog customs in 32-34.  Were those mostly Alexis Sakhnoffsky's handy work?  You see "Dietrich" coachwork on Duesenberg, Packard, Franklin and Lincoln at that time.

Hi A.J.

It is a murky period in Murray/Dietrich history.  The "Dietrich" nameplate had become a marketing vehicle to lend cache by then, absent the man himself creating the designs.  de Sakhnoffsky's contribution seems have been applying the full-length, over-the-cowl hood then coming into vogue, as Briggs/LeBaron was doing for their customers.   Those "Dietrich" tagged cars after his departure were the company utilizing his fine design-work to sell whatever series customs and the occasional full-custom bodies they could.  

Remember, in the end, they even stuck "Dietrich" tags onto the Packard 120 convertible sedans.  My conclusion about that is someone found a box of unused "Dietrich" body tags on a shelf, convinced sales management it would be good for the sale of those expensive models to have a bit of 'custom-body designer' cache added.

Steve

So Murray was building the "Dietrich" bodies being put on Lincoln but Packard was building the "Dietrich" bodied cars being put on Packard, updating the designs themselves and putting the tags on for marketing purposes?

Hi A.J.

By the mid-1920's, mass production body suppliers such as Fisher, Briggs and Murray had noticed the lucrative business that had been developed by small custom body firms and each set about acquiring or developing their own in-house custom body division.  Fisher was fully bought out by GM in 1926, concurrently had acquired control of Fleetwood Metal Body Company.  Not to be outdone by a major competitor, Murrray created Dietrich, Inc., quoting from A Century of Automotive Style, 100 Years of American Car Design, by Michael Lamm and Dave Holls, page 52:

"Fast forward now to Feb. 1925.  After selling his interest in LeBaron to Ralph Roberts and leaving New York, Dietrich arrived in Detroit as a 50% partner in Dietrich Inc. The other half was owned by Murray Corp. of America.  Murray, as mentioned, was a major body supplier to Lincoln, Ford, Reo, Hupmobile, Hudson and others."

Last to acquire an in-house coach-building arm was Briggs after Walter Briggs approach LeBaron's owner Ralph Roberts et al with a deal in 1927, completed by 1930 when the last remnant of original NYC office closed.  In each case, the parent, production body company set up the custom operation with a separate plant solely for low-volume series and full-custom coach-building.   Custom coachwork was very profitable in the late 1920's but became a serious financial drain with the onset of the Great Depression.  Each folded the coach-building business into the production operations to a greater or lesser degree as those difficult years wore on.   As body building methods evolved from the metal-over-wood composite construction to all-steel by 1940, with its attendant higher cost tool and die-work and necessary higher production volumes to amortize those costs, coach-building operations largely became building lengthened versions or customizing production body shells.

Within all this time, in which plants and how much can be identified as full, partial or minor custom coachbuilding is very hard to quantify.  The parent companies generally supported the coachbuilding operations with functional work such as castings, forgings, plating, any basic craft operations that would be prohibitively costly to set up on a low-volume basis.  It would be safe to say that any body with the "Dietrich, Inc." tag came from a plant Murray dedicated to that work.   It would reflect the greater handcrafting and low-volume methods necessary to produce a body of the expected quality, though it might still  contain content shared with volume production bodies.   As even mid'30's production convertible sedans for were generally built in an off-the-main production line operation, like the 120 models, Murray may have felt justified applying the "Dietrich" tags.

Steve

Thanks Steve.   Does that mean that Murray was building those spectacular 32-34 Dietrich Packards?  

Hi A.J.

Yes, those V-windshield Individual Custom Dietrich bodies were coming from the plant Murray operated for its Dietrich coach-building arm, likely the same one that built the body for your Royale and the three other Packard 845 sport sedans and the eight sport sedan bodies as pictured on the '32 Lincoln KB shown above.  Bodies such as the sedans and victoria coupe on the Lincoln KA and REO Royale were built in the regular Murray production body plants.  The level of handwork wouldn't have been as great, more general production stamping and assembling.  This takes nothing away from these cars, they were built with a very high level of quality.

Hugo Pfau, who apprenticed with LeBaron, wrote that at times, to keep the custom coach-building operations busy during slow times, body shells would be built, finished in primer paint and shipped to the carmaker to finish the color coats and interior trim.  It was referred to as "bodies in the white".  He noted that for their LeBaron operation, they would only attach their "LeBaron" coach-builder tag if they had done the complete building, trimming and finishing of the body to their standards.  When Marmon came to Briggs to build bodies for the Sixteen but looking for favorable unit prices, the work was done in the underutilized LeBaron shops "in the white" then shipped to Marmon's Indianapolis plant for painting and interior trimming.  Thus, no "LeBaron" tags were affixed though structurally the body was a LeBaron product.

Steve

Thanks Steve.  I did know that about the Marmon bodies and how they would not put their tag on it because they were not doing the finish work.  I did not realize they made 8 of those KB sport sedans.  The silver/gray one is the only pictures I have ever seen.