CCCA Judging

Steve,

My dad has acted as a judge but I have never done it. I have been on the "judged" end of the process. My feeling is that the club is open to any knowledgeable person who wants to judge. It is not easy to find people willing to do it so anyone enthusiastic about participating should be welcomed with open arms.

A.J.

thanks A.J. - understand NE region is pretty active and I need to get that application in, I hear there are some tech sessions planned for spring, one I think, in CT and one maybe in NH?

Anyway, as usual, thanks for the feedback!

Also hoping to generate any discussion on the overall process within CCCA, as the main board has been a little slow these past few days at least relating to Classic era stuff...

I know there are at least 2 past CCCA presidents (both NER members) that check in once in a while. Perhaps they can chime in when they see this thread. The tech sessions are usually pretty good. They schedule them for fairly cool places so there are things to look at before and after the session.

I've judged in CCCA before. It's been a while, so it may have changed, but the training is not as formalized as it is in AACA.

The head judge will give pointers to the team, and he is usually very experienced in judging, so even if there's a newbie in the group, he can direct them correctly.

CCCA judging is a good way to get to know the Classic cars, as it involves both cosmetic and mechanical condition of the car.

Oh, we're going to playeth that game....

“In judging others a man laboreth in vain; he often erreth, and easily falleth into sin; but in judging and examining himself he always laboreth to good purpose”

By the way, this post was in response to a post that said "judge not lest ye be judged", which now seems to have been deleted....dc

Try this for some insight......

"Our judgements judge us, and nothing reveals us, exposes our weaknesses, more ingeniously than the attitude of pronouncing upon our fellows automobile"

Even now after hours of reflection, I still cant comprehend what I have written. (plagiarized)

Ed Minnie, CCCA Master Judge #24

Steve, If you want some help on CCCA judging, come up to the shop in Springfield and we can go over some cars. Ed

Ed, I should have guessed you were a judge. You can show him my Stutz engine and explain why it's a zero deduction

It would be a good idea to post the CCCA judging video on the CCCA website for the members. Maybe it could be posted to youtube for all to see? Ed

Thanks for the feedback guys. On the religious discussion I do remember successfully talking a friend into skipping CCD enough times to ensure he had to repeat it the following year....

David, you hit the nail on the head, my goal is to learn more about Classics.

Ed, I will take you up on your kind offer indeed, having seen your interesting posts (one recent one about younger guys in the area who drive prewar cars was especially interesting...) it would be cool to check out your shop; not too far from me in the Hartford area. Will touch base after the holidays! Between you, A.J. and myself perhaps the NER will need a "kids table" at future events...

WOW! I have had my first post removed. I had to run the quote that was posted through google to find out where it was from...... Since it was directly related to judging I didn't think my additional comment was out of line or religiously based. Guess the higher up authority thought it was....... well, no foul, no harm. Steve, maybe we can judge your 120 at the CCCA judging seminar. We have used non classics before when enough full classics were not available. It's good feedback to see how you judge your own car compared to 25 or more other people. There is lots of good information exchanged at the seminars. You can sign up to become a "student" judge, and then go on to become an accredited judge through the CCCA program. Attend a few grand classics and run a seminar and you can earn the Master Judge pin. I'm pretty sure it is safe to say that both AJ and myself have been the youngest member at a CCCA meet dozens of times. Ed

Last time I judged CCCA was probably 30 years ago, sounds like it's become more formalized, that's good. When I judged, they were asking for volunteers out of the attendees of the Grand Classics.....

Haven't been very active with the CCCA since my wife and I were somewhat snubbed at a Grand Classic in Baltimore, because we brought "only" an open Packard....to a meet with 5 Isotta Fraschinis and numerous other super high dollar cars.....and no, I'm not paranoid, this really happened, I used to love the group down in Louisiana/Texas and their CCCA events, but the Northeast seemed a little different....

Ed's not only a "youngster", but a font of information on pre-war Classics, and a good friend.......

David, Ed's posts speak for themself but between your comments and A.J.'s I am excited to meet him in person. (you also someday - likely at Hershey...)

Ed, I love the idea of judging the 120 - I think you can be blind to things on your own vehicle so that perspective would be an added benefit!

Here is a question - does CCCA ever promote this forum? So far I have only received a couple of "Bulletins" so I am not sure. Great to hear from you three but no surprises in that you are "forum regulars" - it seems this particular section of the forum is a bit underused?

Why isn't there a point-deduction for gloss paint on engine accessories that were originally semi-gloss or matte black? How many 100- and high-point cars have we seen with gloss black engine accessories that never were. You can spin this, and sputter, but it's wrong.

And, not to belabor this, by why isn't there a point deduction for whitewalls on 1946-47 cars? Other than a very few '47 models delivered during the last month or so of the model year, NO 1946-47 cars regardless price class were delivered with whitewalls. Magazine ads have no bearing on this.

If you can prove your car was delivered at the tail end of the model year so equipped, okay. Everyone else, no.

No one says you can't spray your air cleaner, generator, starter, etc. gloss black, or put whitewalls on your 1946-47 car. But right is right. Are historical accuracy, authenticity prerequisites for judging or not?

You can't have it both ways just because you like something, or want to gild the lily. Until the above and other modern era owner vanities are addressed, judging is a joke. There's no such thing as accuracy, authenticity when it's convenient, or doesn't clash with current owner's taste.

Either judging means something, or it doesn't. Which is it?

I'm sympathetic with wanting to personalize our cars, or do certain things we might view as upgrades. I replaced a painted steel water distributing tube in my engine bay with a polished stainless steel one merely as i prefer it. But i'd never expect to have it okayed by a judge.

But once and for all, let's decide if judging is always based on truth, or fancy. Until then, let's not kid ourselves.

Su8OD, I agree with some of your points, but let's go back in time and think about how these cars were made and sold.

A lot of cars had to be dressed up to to sell, so gloss paint on some engine accessories isn't out of the realm of reality.

As far as whitewalls, that's an interesting question. Could you buy whitewalls in 1947? Probably.

Did they come from the factory with whitewalls? Probably not, but all one needs is one picture from a factory shipment, showing whitewalls, and then it's open season.

With all due respect to the time spent by AACA judges, my general comment is that a lot of judging is done on how one might "think" a vehicle would come from the factory, not the reality of how it really came from the factory.

I'll give you a personal example. In 1969, I'd been fooling with old cars for 5 years, and had restored a 1931 Chevrolet, and partially restored a 1925 Dodge coupe. I was 18 years old, but I knew quite a bit about cars.

I wanted to buy a 1969 Cutlass, and my parents gave it to me as a high school graduation present, but in the process went to local Dodge dealer and test drove a Super Bee. What a piece of junk, fit and finish was a laugh, nothing fit, and everything rattled.

I guarantee, if you showed up with that original car and had it judged, it would win NOTHING, it was awful......

So, to say restore it to "original" is an impossible task to start with. What people are doing is restoring cars to a standard they think would be original, but again, is not based in reality.

OK, start throwing stones....

I get all your points above. And, believe me, as mentioned, i'm sympathetic with wanting to upgrade, gild the lily.

But my question remains as unanswered now as it was the last time the issue of, for example, whitewalls came up.

Obviously, we're not going to smear chassis black on our frames and call it a day. I painted my undercarriage with a quality protective paint.

Yet obvious things like gloss black paint on engine accessories that were never delivered with other than semi-gloss are clear cut. And whitewalls on 1946 cars are wrong, wrong, wrong. 1947 cars need to be addressed as above.

Simply: If you're going to have your car judged and have it mean something, the above have to be remedied.

That "everyone does it" or "we like whitewalls" doesn't cut it. When you restore or otherwise present a car to be judged, even if it's otherwise faultless, if you sprayed matte or semi-gloss black engine accessories gloss, or installed whitewalls, you should be docked points accordingly. Period.

Otherwise, judging is farce, a vanity exercise.

Judging should be final arbiter, ensuring cars that are presented as CCCA Classics are faithful. If any part of them are unauthentic, they should be noted, and certainly not validated by receiving 100 points, etc.

Until these flagrant instances of inauthenticity are no longer swept under the rug, justified by vanity or "we all do it," judging lacks credibility. Judging is where the buck stops. The final arbiter. I'd never tell anyone what they can or can't do with their car. But if that car is presented for judging, let's get real.

Su8overdrive..... this thread was not about authenticity questions or problems. It sure sounds like you mind is made up and therefore I won't bother to answer. I suggest you take the CCCA judging classes, become a student judge, then an accredited judge, then master judge, and then a national event head judge, run through the problems and issues related to them, (tabulation and owner directed questions and problems.) then comment on what you think is a fair, verifiable solution to your complaints. If the issue is truly important to you, the effort should no be too great. It would probably only take 7 to 10 years. As there is no perfect system of government, there is no perfect system of judging cars. We can only strive to do the very best we can. This is supposed to be a FUN hobby, and it takes all kinds of collectors from the Pebble Beach crowd to the as found barn find cars. I find them all interesting. Ed.

PS- Dave, thanks for the kind words. I must admit the more I study the cars of the CCCA era, the more I see that there were very few hard rules to what was being shipped out was "always" done one way or another.

I get your points about your now "antique" if not Classic Mopar, Trimacar, and agree. I had to upgrade such an era Mopar ragtop years ago. But these aren't usually concerns with CCCA full Classics, which are by their definition fine, well-engineered, quality, luxury, upscale barouches.

Edinmass sounds mired in bureaucracy. I've had cars judged at nationally renowned concours d' elegances, by CCCA, Packard Club, SCCA regulations.

But as this is a judging thread, i wanted to bring up these glaring exceptions to authenticity. If you want to start a new thread, fine, i bow to your bureaucratic procedures.

Yet, again, sounds like more side-stepping, sputtering, buck-passing; anything to justify modern vanity over historic reality. Specifically, cars that were delivered with engine accessories in matte or semi-gloss (whatever term you prefer) black are today routinely showed at CCCA-judged events with gloss black and never penalized.

This is, purely, simply, wrong. So are whitewalls on 1946 cars. Period. And no 1947 cars, regardless of price/make/model, were delivered with whitewalls, other than a very few during the last month or so of the '47 sales year.

We note that when there's enough hyperactive aging boomer money behind something, as with allowing Chrysler Town & Country models into the CCCA, things happen.

What about it, sportsfans? Is CCCA judging--not AACA or muscle car-- but CCCA judging always about authenticity, historical correctness,

or vanity?

Actions speak louder than words. When we see CCCA Full Classic cars with gloss black engine accessories and cars that were never delivered with whitewalls penalized accordingly at CCCA Grand Classics and the like, we'll have the above answer.

Su8, I agree with you, I have judged from hometown shows to CCCA and Pebble Beach. It is all subjective. CCCA judging is tough because it covers so many wildly different cars from so many years. It is almost impossible to get a group of judges together at a meet that know authenticity on an Isotta or supercharged Mercedes. You would be lucky to find one. If you do find just one, and he scores low because he knows that something that is wrong that the others don't, it isn't fair in the grand scheme of things because maybe you don't have a judge who is an Isotta or Wills St Claire expert, but you do have an MB expert. On the other hand you can easily find 4 Packard or Cadillac experts, and that isn't fair either. That is the rationale for why the club drops the high and low scores of the 4 judges and averages the middle two.

As far as the engine parts go, you are right, most were not the full gloss that we see today if they were purchased from an outside supplier. No one ever, ever deducts for excessive gloss anywhere that I have seen. On the other hand, there are cars that will score 100 points and be better than other cars that score 100 points. The doors and fenders and body panels fit perfect on some cars and don't on others. Dave makes the point that some cars weren't that good when they were new and that is true. Some were really good though, so how do we restore them to be really accurate? When I did my Bohman & Schwartz there were small custom made panels above the doors that were nailed on. If you put them on the way that B & S did, there was a little dimple where every nail went in that held them on, the nails were covered by a trim strip, but the dimples showed. A long time CCCA judge and restorer told me I should have smoothed that up with filler and gotten rid of the dimples and that he couldn't have left it that way. I still think I did it the right way.

Professional restorations are slowly coming around to being closer to really authentic, but when you see what some owners do to cars all in the name of winning big prizes, it is stunning.

As far as I know, you are right about whitewalls on 46s and probably 47s too. I put blackwalls on my 46 2106 Clipper club sedan and got continual grief for it. They were Michelin radials, but were the correct size.