small pre-war Rolls Royces

One major problem with the pre war Wraith, they only made approx 700, so spares are difficult, Heads are prone to internal cracks & are impossible to find,

Engine & box rubber mounted & when properly sorted are lovely to drive, Rubber mountings can collapse causing car to jam in gear, Suspension parts are available for the Independant front end, but Expensive.

If the car is running listen out carefully for Hissing noises from within the Exhaust manifold, a sure sign of water ingress & failing head, Exhaust manifolds are also prone to problems. Chassis also can rust badly, these are hollow box section with large round holes for dirt & water to collect in.

As for the coachbuilt body, make sure the wood is sound especially front Door Pillars, & check the Piper Electric windows if fitted,

Also known as the 25/30 Wraith but does not use any parts used on earlier models, if you have any questions or are unsure about any aspect of these cars please ask.

Anglesey clearly knows of what he speaks. I'd read in an auld English motoring magazine that when the "Small Horsepower" Rolls-Royce 20 junior car debuted in 1922, it "borrowed" much from the existing Buick Six, tho' in the words of one English road tester, was "....not so good."

Another English source, perhaps Autocar magazine, said the R-R 20hp was the basis for the engines in all Rolls-Royce/R-R Bentley products except the Phantom I/II/III until R-R/Bentley introduced their V-8 in the fall of 1959.

Maurice Hendry and others mention the R-R V-8's chief engineer, after a couple drinks at its press debut, blurting out, "It's bloody near as good as the Chrysler."

Since Anglesey has an interesting stable, i'd be interested in his insights comparing/contrasting the small hp Rolls-Royce with the Buick 6, as he owns both. We know the Rolls-Royce is lovingly built--another English motoring journalist back in the early '50s, writing about Classic era R-Rs, described them as "....a triumph of craftsmanship over engineering."

Each year during the late 1930s until the war in Europe broke out, Rolls-Royce disassembled a new Buick Limited for the latest production tips.

Until the Rolls-Royce Silver Cloud and concurrent Bentley S-Type were introduced autumn, 1955, R-R/Bentley copied the prewar Packard Saf-T-fleX independent front suspension nut for bolt. The Silver Cloud/S-Type went to a conventional i.f.s for the same reason as the 1941-47 Packard Clipper; the lowered floorpan left no reason for Saf-T-fleX's long torque arms.

A fellow who rebuilds Merlins told me the ones built by R-R have nicer cosmetics, hand finishing, but the Merlins Packard produced were better engineered, and the ones Reno Air Racers and others want.

But i always thought the Wraiths were, and are, lovely, agreeing with Scott about their more rational size, and the 200 or so similarly-engined 1938-39 Overdrive Bentley 4 1/4-liters sound nice, even tho' "overdrive" meant final gearing no taller than 3.65:1 or so.

Often wonder what sort of Bentleys we'da seen had Napier outbid R-R in 1931.

I like such Rolls-Royce/Bentleys for their charm and bespoke lines, even tho' another English auto journalist dismissed Rolls-Royce as "....a great confidence trick." They're lovely mobile furniture, at the very least. After viewing their well-enameled engines, i'm always inspired to carefully wipe down my Packard's engine with a kerosene-soaked rag even if it doesn't need it.

Meanwhile, does anyone have any indepth info, detailed photos, maybe an engineering cross-section of the small hp-based Rolls-Royce B-80 346-ci F-head inline 8 introduced in 1950, used in the mere 18 Phantom IVs, as well as Dennis fire engines and military vehicles? Some of us with the inline 356-ci Super-8 Packard produced 1940-50 and Cadillac 346-ci V-8 through '48 would be interested.

Thanks!

In answer to the last message, The pre war wraith cannot be compared to the , other small HP models, they have nothing in common apart from an engine with less HP than the phantoms, The 1922-29 20HP is one of the sweetest imaginable to drive, followed closely by the 20-25 & 25-30, these are are very similar & parts are readily available, My own car is a 1929,20-25, but is unusual in that it is a short 20HP chassis with the larger 20-25 engine fited from new, in fact the third oldest known 25, lovely to drive, but as is the case with all RRs as soon as RR produced a bigger better car the coachbuilders loaded it with an even heavier body, in my humble opinion the best 20HP would be the 1926 -7 model, slightly larger crank, front wheel brakes & the last with Horizontal shutters, As for the Wraith, loads of smooth power, brakes adequate when sorted, but if you have a head problem the car becomes a long term static exhibit, because you wont find a good head anywhere, some new have been made but proved less than acceptable.

As for my master 6, recently bought & undergoing partial restoration of a very sound car, bought on its reputation, comparison will have to wait but I suspect the 20 will have it beat.

Gullwing Motorcars out of NY has a really handsome small RR right now, supposedly ariginal, a '39. Not sure if this is the ebay car or not but I saw it last week and was impressed.

Correction, it's a '37. RROC & CCCA eligible for under 20 grand!

http://www.gullwingmotorcars.com/detail-1937-rolls~royce-25_30-sedan-used-7915773.html

A.J. those postwar Wraith and also the Bently R cars really appeal to me for many of the reasons the poster above notes.

A car I had a chance to buy but passed on was a one year only Austin that basically looked identical to the RR Wraith full flow fenders as pictured in your family car. (most of them are not nearly as attractive, and people stick RR grilles on them but they just don't look right.) - I think it was a '52. Never seen another one. It had an aluminum body, sunroof and big P100 headlamps. As a fan of the unusual, I bet you would have liked that one.

Just checked the Gullwing link above, That shows a late series 20-25 with a catsback carb, not a 25-30, looks like a nice honest car, much better bet than the Pre war wraith mentioned, As for Post war Silver Wraith, a totally new design more in keeping with the Mk 6 & R type cars, with the Rover designed IOE engine,

Anglesey, not to hijack the thread but any ideas as to the model name of the Austin I described above? Could have bought this from a local collector and long time owner in the early 90s for around $4,000; I do not believe he called it a "Princess" as the later ones were called. This car looked exactly like a Silver Wraith sedan.

Those small HP cars are good and reliable. There is only one way to purchase one. Join the Roll-Royce Owners Club PRIOR to your purchase. Use the experience of the club members to help deciding on the car you want. I am sure there is an RROC member who can quote the history of WMB35 with familiarity.

The last thing you want to do is buy a Proper Motor Car, show up at a RROC club meeting, and hear someone say "Oh, you bought THAT car."

Bernie

Re the Wraith / Austin look alike , This was probably the Austin Sheerline A125, which had large P100 Headlamps, or could have been a Vanden Plas Princess especially built for the Carriage trade, favourite tool for the Funeral & wedding trade.

Thanks Anglesey - Google confirmed Sheerline A-125, only one I have ever seen stateside, and I believe he referred to it as an A-125 (vs. a name) which is probably why over the past 18 - 20 years the model name slipped away from me. It's in the half dozen or so "regrets" file folder...

+1 to Bernie's advice on seeking advice, Scott. We have an RR collector in our local AACA region, but the big stuff (Springield cars fairly abundant in New England) - he would gladly spend ALL DAY discussing the technical details of those cars, which do seem to want more tinkering/servicing/adjusting than some typical US contemporaries. But very interesting...

Scott, not sure of your current interest level but as these do not seem to surface that often, here is a 25/30 available in CT:

1938 Rolls Royce 25/30 Hooper & Co | Black Horse Automotive Services - Connecticut Antique Car Restoration

I really like the floor in that shop. Old factory building I assume.

They are in a really tough section of Bridgeport, CT A.J. - they have some fantastic stuff in there. Really nice guys, I think even a couple of Classic prewar MB have been through there, really heavy on postwar European sportscars. Our local AACA region did an event there after I met some of the team sharing a lunch table at the Newport Concours a few years ago, and the year before you and your dad came out to our show they brought up some cool stuff. Everything from brass to Classics to sportscars. You should check out the site once in a while. You know this one is simillar to what I would like to find, but not "the car" - maybe Scott likes it though.

Steve, I would have told you to hop all over this one: 1937 Rolls Royce | Black Horse Automotive Services - Connecticut Antique Car Restoration

Very pretty car, A.J. - but I suspect a bit over budget! The black 52 RR just after it, however, and the MG TC could have been contenders though. (In a Bentley, RR or Jag I think I am solidly in a closed car budget!! )

I've been following this thread with interest, and started to do some searches on the Wraith engine. Here's a very detailed discussion about one man's effort to rebuild a Wraith engine -- good reading! 1939 Rolls-Royce Wraith Engine Overhaul, Part V

Thanks Cecil, will read it. The car at Blackhorse is reasonable, and local to me, but I would be very concerned about the mechanics, it's being RHD, and now, a restoration that is aged to where it appears to need it all again. A couple of "trusted advisors" suggest moving along, but it could be a good car for someone who really wants a prewar RR. The last concern I would have is if it would be a tad underpowered. If I was to get a CCCA eligible car I would want it tour-ready, and I am not sure if this has more of an early 30s feel than late 30s.

The 52 Silver Dawn is the one I wish I saw a bit earlier, I like everything about it other than the fact it is obviously not CCCA eligible.

BTW - what ever happenned to your possible interest in a MB W111?