Buicks For Full Classic Certification

Earl,

How does one send messages of support? Many of us are not CCAA members, but I think I can get someone who is to lend some support.

John

Mr. Scheib,

Encourage a CCCA member to send a letter by email to the CCCA Classification Committee at CLASSICCARCLUB@aol.com and ask that it be forwarded I would presume.

Earl

Dear Earl,

Good luck in your efforts to get certification for the Series 70 and Series 80 Buicks with the Classic Car Club of America.

I'm not a member of the CCCA, but I have a few thoughts on the subject I was wanting to put out on the table. I know that there is a formal way to apply for Full Classic Status involving application by a member for either an individual car or a whole model of cars, and a review by the Classification Committee.

Since there seem to be a lot of makes and models of motorcars that people would like to see given Classic status, I was wondering if it would help things if there was a meet somewhere where people could do a little informal lobbying for the marque they were interested in being recognized as Classic. What I'm picturing is a CCCA event with a well-defined area for certified cars only, and another area for some candidates for Classic status. Granted, it would not, by itself, raise a car to a Full Classic -- but it might give CCCA members a chance to see what people were interested in certifying. One drawback is that some of these cars might develop a stigma just from being there, and another is that there's no guarantee that ANY more cars will be added to the CCCA lists.

Just my opinion, but I would find it helpful if in the CCCA.

Jeff, I don't know about any of that, except to say one has to be a member to have any chance of making his or her idea receive discussion. That is true of any organization in fact. All I can tell you is that I have gone through the formal process and it is under consideration. All I was attempting to do here at this time is let the powers at be know there are (or aren't I suppose) more members interested in this than just myself. Those who know me, also know I've spent my entire adulthood espousing the qualifications and desirability of the pre-World War II Buick straight 8 cars. I suppose I will continue to do so until I'm no longer able. Since I was 15-16 years old I've been preaching to whomever will listen by both the written word and verbally just how great these cars were. "Ask the Man Who Knows Me" Haha. Earl

I suspect the powers that be within CCCA are still a bit sore from the recent Town and Country debacle but I do wish you luck.

Thanks Restorer32 for your thoughts. Well, you could be right but here in South Florida I've found the local people to be exceptionally friendly and I am hoping my request is not affected by something else that didn't happen on my watch. There is a basic policy change being considered, that would make it possible for specific models within a model series to be considered. I think that is a good thing, and maybe it comes out of the Chrysler considerations of the past several years, I don't know. But, it looks like to me the club leaders are seriously involved in thinking ahead and are not stuck in the past. So, maybe this request has a chance. Regardless of that, since I'm 71 years old now, it was now or never for me. I don't have 5-10 years to wait around for any past decisions to dim into the past. Besides, there is and was a process for determining a Full Classic and apparently the Chrysler decision went through that process. Not every decision will always be non-contested. We live in a country where it has always been majority rule; or, that's what my Dad always told me. The most important thing is, with the explosion of modified cars, that all of our National clubs dedicated to preserving the history of the great automobiles of the 1930's and 1940's be proactive in building their base to preserve as many of the cars as possible. I continuously worry about my Buicks falling into the hands of a street rodder when I'm gone. Here, where I live, it would not surprise me to go to a cruise-in and see a Packard V-12 roadster that had been street rodded. As a matter of fact, I did see a Cord street rod at Ormond Beach a couple of years ago.

Actually, that was the problem. The T&C kind of entered thru the back door. Regardless, I agree with the acceptance of the T&C but shouldn't the '46-'48 Buick Estate Wagon qualify also, using the same logic? The Estate Wagon was built on the identical cowl and pan as the '47 Cadillac, which of course is accepted. Some other straight 8 Buicks are Full Classics, are they not? Estate Wagons were built pre-war as well. Let's first see how you fare. Might be interesting to nominate the '41-'48 Estate Wagons and hear the arguments for and against.

Restorer32. My motto is, avoid ever biting off more than you can chew. As far as I know, there were no Roadmaster Estate Wagon's built before the War, only Specials and Supers. There may have been a custom one built that I don't know about. The only Buicks currently recognized are The 1931-1942 Series 90. I accomplished that one with both CCCA and AACA in the very late 1970's, I don't remember the exact year, and somebody else achieved it for the 1940 Series 80 because it is called a Limited. There are other custom-bodied Buicks that are Full Classics like the Brewster's, and there may be some others. Brunn built some in 1940 and 1941 but I don't know if those owners have ever applied, and I'm pretty sure the one and only 1940 owner has not. That would be my car if I could afford it. And, there may be some other custom body builders who used a Buick chassis. I don't know the answer to that.

As for the 1942-1948 Series 70 Buicks, those can be someone else's cause. The 1946-1948 were somewhat of a step back from 1941 when they dropped the horsepower back to 141 and did not have all of the technical innovations introduced in 1941. True, the 1942 did continue those innovations, but introduced the new body style. I felt to include them in my application would only open a Pandor's Box because they share the new body with the post-War Buick. Again, never bite off more than you can chew.

I think you're exaggerating the uniqueness of the GM convertible sedan bodies of 1940 & 1941. The "custom work" you're describing is little more than a bunch of lead trowelled on and then filed & sanded down. Cadillac, 52 series LaSalle, and the large Buick all used the same convertible sedan body. The convertible coupe bodies also have filed down lead in them right behind the door at the top of the body right where the top mechanism fits. I don't consider trowelled on lead an important custom body feature. It's more of a case of the manufacturer knew they wouldn't sell many of thse things so instead of spending the money to have new stamping dies made up, they found it cheaper to alter a sedan body with the use of lead. It's really no different than how they made the 1953 Eldorado/Skylark/Fiesta cars. They took a standard convertible body and had some fun with a sabre saw and lead. I think it is in err to compare this practice to the practice of manufacturing a custom body from scratch.

That could be a factor in their decision but aren't there plenty of recognized classics that use production bodies, and more pedestrian bodystyles than a convertible sedan? Some of these cars share basic body shells with non Classics.

This is an interesting thread, it seems to me to be a viable candidate relative to some cars that are already in. There are other factors such as drivetrain that certainly seem competitive. Will be interesting to see what the outcome is.

Earl,

Thank you for commenting on my post. Maybe no one would be caught dead attending a CCCA show with their car if they had to park in a separate field designated for Not-Quite-, Not-Yet- or Not-Exactly-Classic. My guess is that people would attend, based upon the number of people who wished their car was a Full Classic. I would be curious myself to see what vehicles would appear.

Point well taken that one needs to be a member to really be a part of the discussion. If I had a car that was a Classic or was submitting an individual car to the Classification Committee I would probably join. My grandfather had a couple of full classics: a 1922 Lincoln and a 1926 Elcar. I have a 1928 Peerless, but it's not one of the 6% of Peerless vehicles built that are approved models.

It seems that to be a Classic, a car needs to be near the top of the pyramid regarding design, cost, and power. I think most of the straight-eight Buicks from 1930-42 meet those criteria and wish you luck with your application.

Jeff

K8096 I won't argue with you, because I'm not body man or restorer. I'm one of those guys who depends on other guys who don't have all thumbs. I was only quoting a famous restorer who has build Senior prize winners out of 16 1941 Buick Roadmaster phaetons. As for LaSalle 52, yep, you're right, they used the same body as a Cadillac 62 also. But, neither the Cadillac or LaSalle was trying the advanced engineering of the twin Strombergs that pushed horsepower up to 165 hp. I makes no difference that many mechanics didn't have vacuum gauges to set them, and experienced some problems. They can be made to run just great today, and they were the forerunner of the 4-barrel carb. That was told to me directly by the former Chief Engineer of Buick, the late Charley Chayne in a personal letter to me. Hey, it's great down here in New Bern, NC today at the AACA Grand National Meet. Wish you were here, so we could talk in person.

Ever see all the lead piled onta a '46-'48 Lincoln Continental?

Just another week or two before the Committee considers my application for the 1931-1941 Buick Series 70 and 80 for Full Classic status. All I can do is keep my fingers crossed. Wish the Buick's luck.

Any news?

Was no mention of any action on the part of the Classification Committee in the latest Bulletin.

Sorry guys, but I've been traveling and I haven't been checking in on the thread. To answer some of your questions, after the last CCCA Bulletin was received here, with no mention of the Buick consideration by the Committee, I wrote to the man in charge. He did not answer immediately, but did send me an email several days or a week later. He said the consideration of all the material I sent to back up the request had been assigned to a Committee member from Michigan and that man did not attend the June meeting. So, any consideration was postponed until August. So far, it's August 25, and no new information from him.

I went to the roster night before last to look up a 1928 Marmon to see if it was a Full Classic. This Marmon model, by the way, is not. Anyway, I happened on a paragraph that listed "declined" requests. I was shocked to see that the 1931-1939 Buick Series 80 has been turned down 10 times since 1980. Now, I'm sure none of those ten requestors had the information, knowledge of Buicks, backup literature and well known collectors behind them that I did on this request. However, the Chrysler Town & Country had been turned about as many times and finally got over the hurdle. So, I guess you can say "nothing is forever". Still, I don't have a warm and cozy feeling. Somebody very powerful, long ago, I think back when I was a boy (and I'm almost 72), was for some reason very down on Buick as a brand. Hopefully we're entering a more enlightened era about Buick's built before World War II. Under the direction of Harlow Curtice, Buick was the GM brand that was pushing every area of automobile manufacturing, including speed, power, innovation, luxury and quality, so much so that in 1941 Cadillac had to go to GM leadership and complain about the heat that Buick leadership was putting on their own sphere of influence in GM product layout.

All of this is a very complicated review. The good news is that the process continues. In other words the latest hurdle has been has been successfully passed without an answer of "no". There are several more hurdles that could result in a "no", but with each hurdle passed there can remain hope for a successful conclusion for those of us who support these Buick cars. I would rather not say any more at this time for fear of my doing something to harm possibilities of success rather than help it. For now, friends of the issue, just keep the faith and express your support when or if the time comes. That will be extremely important. Thanks to everyone who has expressed their support to me priviately and on this web site.

Earl,

Thanks for your continued effort

and follow-up,

Marty