How important is originality in materials?

It costs nearly the same amount of money to restore a car?s interior using the proper materials as it does to re-do it using the wrong stuff. If the interior has proper workmanship, then the labor is the really big-ticket item. When you go to sell the car, unless it is a street rod (in that case, all bets are off?) then the authentic interior is going to make it more desirable to the collector.

Of course, you can just do a cheap job, using non-authentic materials and techniques. That will be less expensive labor wise, but you are doing nothing towards preserving automotive history.

It?s your car though, so it?s your choice.

I "second" Chuck's remarks....with the following additional comments. Think about why we mess with these old "pains-in-the-hindquarters" in the first place. How did the Classic Car Club get established....what did we want to do....how is that reflected in our judging, and how does this differ from the "public car show" events.

Take painting, for example. Proper preparation of the surface is 90% of the cost and effort. Of COURSE the modern "two part" (heck..even the "one part") paints are vastly superior to the nitrocellulose lacquer used up thru roughly mid 1955, when acrylic lacquer and other "magic chemicals" started appearing). Superior in durability, and in "shine".

My personal prejudice is that even the un-trained eye can spot the difference in the way they "look" - a function of the way light reacts off the different chemical structure. Nitrocellulose lacquer and its "accessory" chemicals are still available - even in California you can still buy thinner, so getting it is not a problem.

The problem is...what are you going to DO with that "collector car" once you get it fixed up. If you want to compete in the PUBLIC car shows, where the event is centered around pleasing the spectator, who may have paid a LOT of money to get in and thus has a right to be "entertained", then I would recommend going to the modern "showy" paint materials and schemes. As for CCCA events, it was only relatively recently that we do NOT take off for the "wrong" paint - even so, you WILL get "raised noses" from us "old timers" for the use of non-original finishes.

As Chuck notes, forget about using non-original upholstery and/or patterns. The expense isnt that much different. And...he is being gracious...many of us feel this effectively destroys the car. Even the "public show" crowd types will probably spot it and wrinkle their noses.

I personally cringe at over-chroming, especially on cars that were built before the chrome era. But again...what are your personal needs...where are you going to take your car. Public car show ? Want to win prizes. In that case..go ahead and chrome the hell out of it....!

Again, bottom line...think back about why we have a CCCA in the first place. To encourage PERSERVATION of these fine old "engineering exaggerations...magnificently over-done" as they were when new cars. A review of CCCA judging rules, confirm we still pretty much follow our original intent, which was to encourage RESTORATION to what they were when new.

Our judging is based on an OBJECTIVE view of how closely the car was returned to the condition it was on delivery day to the first owner. A car being delivered to its first owner was NOT "jewelery case perfect". It had GREASE on its grease fittings...maybe some road dust or "splash" from being road-tested. Of COURSE that will get you sneers of disapproval at these fancy PUBLIC car shows.

But...each to his own. BEST thing for you to do...is...do what is good for YOU. It IS your car...! Be assured that no matter WHAT you do...there is always some wise-guy who will find fault with it. So what...as Chuck has implied...this is NOT a religion..it IS a hobby !

PFH

Thank you, PFH. I appreciate your well thoughtout, concise and polite replies. It is a great pleasure having a resource like you and the others at my finger tips. I would like to have the opportunity one day of sitting down to a cold beer and some good conversation about Packards, and other cars. <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Chuck, et al, I must beg your pardon. I have done a terrible thing through ignorance.

When I had the '47 redone on the interior, I chose a non-original cotton batting (Poly blend) in dove grey with dark blue piping to match the dark blue exterior (which was to be painted later...the last owner painted the car in a bright blue rather than the original dark blue). I did this more because I was told it would wear better and feel better. It does look good but now I see I have spoiled the car.

When I had the clock and radio redone, I had them reworked with digital workings. The radio still sports a single large speaker but will get AM/FM and takes a modern CD or MP3 player through a hidden jack underneath. Another faux pas.

I have been reading the CCCA Judging sections and now wonder if the interior door handles, window cranks and the like should be chrome, stainless steel or nickel. Does anyone know for sure? Damn being a novice can sure be expensive and embarrassing. <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

The only stainless steel on door handles I am aware (there may be a few others) for regular production American cars are the EXTERIOR door handles on the '38 Packard Twelve and Super Eight. SOME luxury cars of the 1930's were still using nickel for SOME interior plating - as is the case on "big" Packards - EVERY fitting on the interior of my '38 Formal Sedan, from the rim frames on the mirrors of the vanity cases, to the door handles, was nickel - only the dash "pot metal" parts were chromed.

Obviously, chrome is much more durable and practical - to my knowledge, nickel did not appear on production cars, even the luxury ones such as the Packard and Caddy limos, after World War Two. For your '47, you want chrome. Finding a reliable chrome shop that wont

1) lose your parts

2) grind and buff what they DONT lose into smoothed-over junk....

is a whole separate problem !

PFH

Tell me about it. IT looks as though the previous owner took a rouge wheel to several door handles and buffed them, uh, smooth. I don't think they are too damaged but I would have prefered had he done nothing instead.

So chrome is the way to go. OK. I was reading in the CCCA and AACA forums getting more worried as I went. I hate to think I did more damage than good to this venerable old beauty.

Probably would be best were I to sell it to someone who can afford and has the experience to restore it right. I am learning but I am not doing it very well.

Thanks, PHF. You are, as usual, informative and a gentleman.

I'm not sure you've "done a terrible thing," you just made the car the way you wanted it to be. That's not the end of the world, but as you've noticed, it does very little to preserve the history of the car.

You can still have fun with it, take it on CARavans and tours and do all the other stuff we enjoy doing with our cars. Just don't be too surprised when you enter it into AACA, Cad-LaSalle or CCCA judging events that it doesn't score as well as you might like.

As PH points out, at local shows, the judges there may really like what you've done with it and bestow ribbons and trophies on it. You never know.

Don't feel bad, in my earlier car collecting days, I did many of the same things you are doing, simply because I didn't know any better. I still enjoyed the cars though...

Gee, I wonder where that 1952 Mercedes withe the plaid seats is now? It was really "sharp" in 1975.

as far as original materials go,i have a problem. My 1939 lagonda was imported into India in 1940 by the Maharajah of Jodhpur, as he drove this car himself,he had the seat reupholstered in Tiger skin, from the tigers he shot.sometime in the sixties the car was upholstered in red and black rexine as the skin had perished. the car still has this upholstery. where am i to get tiger skins now?

Maybe Ziegfried and Roy can help! They are "magicians" after all.... <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Seriously, why don't you research what Loaonda did when the car was delivered new, and put it back that way. I don't think anyone will fault you, and the "Save The Tigers" folks will be happy.

Tiger skins.....

This is no joke - as many of you know, "Ziegie" and Roy have for many years had an extremely successful (as in "pricey") magic act in Las Vegas (last I heard it was up around a hundred bucks a ticket..and their shows are usually sold out days in advance ).

Anyway, they have done quite well for themselves, amassing collections of all sorts of valuables, including "collector" cars.

You can see where this is going....? This is for REAL...some years ago, a not too bright burglar broke into their estate, winding up in one of their garages, which is attached to the main house. Oh, yes, as many of you know, Zieg and Roy have reaised their tigers from cubs, and treat them as house-pets. NOW you see where this is going...can you see the expression on the burglar's face when he confronts one of the "pet kitties"....? He found a phone, called the police and BEGGED them to get him out of there and arrest him....!

Fortunately for the "not-too-swift" burglar, about the only thing dumber around that estate that night...was the "nice kittie".......these animals apparently make lousy watch-dogs...they just wanted to play with him. ....

By the time he got to the phone, he'd triggered several silent alarms, so he was quickly "rescued" into the arms of justice. Damn...that must have been a funny scene...can't you see it...? " Nice...kittie...NICE kittle...."

PFH

What a handsome car you have there, Sir. I would put my two Rupies in and suggest one of two options. First, research the original manufacturers specifications for the materials or better yet do an online search based on your car. I think there are people that do that, nez pas?

Or secondly you could restore the car to the condition that the Rajput had envisioned. There is absolutely no reason why a Tiger has to die for it. There are man made materials, some of them museum grade that while expensive would give the look and feel of the Tiger pelt without the illegal destruction of so magnificent a beast. Yes boys and girls, I am not only a vile liberal bent on the total destruction of every value held by the good and true, but also an environmentalist!

ACK. Satan's Little Helper.

Anyway, Awini, I think your car is magnificent and I would love to see more pictures of it posted on the Photo forum. Can you tell us a little more about it?

Yours sincerely in the Heart of the American Bush.....SLH

What you do is, you buy a few tiger cubs, raise them carefully so as not to mar their coats. Then when careful measurement shows that their hides are large enough for the job at hand.....

<img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> Delete it quick, Restorer, before the liberals find you out! Wayne

Tut, tut. I SEE you!

Seriously, which would be the prefered method and how would Awini go about such a project?

SLH

Years ago I lived in India for awhile. I'll bet a few Rupees in the right hands would secure you a few pelts. Getting them thru US Customs might be a bit of a problem. The interior appointments wern't ivory were they?

Great Discussion Awini! Rarely have so many wonderful topics and issues that confront our hobby been contained in one thread! Luckily Awini doenst have to import the hides. If we start promoting smuggling here the feds will be onto us for sure. LOL

what say you, Awini, do you think it is possible to get a real pelt? I mean tigers die like everyone else eventually. Whats politically incorrect about using hides from tigers that died of natural causes. What's the lifespan of a tiger anyway? Questions, questions

Shawn

Beautifully covered, Shawn. <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> I still maintain a non-natural hide could be the way to go.

Besides do you have any idea how smelly those hides are?? God help you if they get wet!!!

it is possible to get skins but its not worth getting arrested for.besides i am fanatically against poaching, we have so few tigers left,i have seen them in the wild and they are a magnificiant beast.legal skins rarely change hands and are constanty tracked by the government, and owners cant alter them.

according to the lagonda club, this car war built for the company president, Alan Good and he used it for a short while.this car is just six chassis after the two Le Mans V12 Racers.it has a hybred engine and a higher ratio rear axle from the medium wheelbase chassis,as Lagonda could not supply a car in the midst of WWII, this car was refurbished For the Maharajah of Jodhpur and left the factory for India in Sep 1940, im glad it reached India at all, as so many ships were sunk those days.it left the factory with brown seats,tan top and burgundy body, so i guess thats what its going to be some day. for now i will keep it as is. the shabbyest V12 rapide on earth <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />who knows, WO might have worked on this car himself....

Interesting...so they track the ownership of hides, huh...and you cant alter them by like cutting them to fit properly. Oh well, the original leather probably will look better anyway. What a great car to have!

The only reason i was intrigued about the possibility of getting real skins would be that the history of the car is so interesting and unique.

So how did you come to own this beauty? It wasnt listed in the paper or anything was it?

Shawn

i have known this car for years, and in fact it was actually advertised in a magazine classified in 1999. but didnt sell, i got it as a wedding gift from my dad in nov 2000, it wasnt running then because of a broken timing gear,thats why it didnt sell,all the big collecters vere scared, no one thought of contacting a specialist to find out what could be wrong.which i did, and ended up with a car i could not have dreamed of owning otherwise. dad paid about $50,000 for it, which has to be the bargain of the new millenium. i actually had a choice between a new mercedes and this car, i chose the Lagonda. i have the greatest dad in the world