Comments on non-CCCA posts

The moderators do NOT have discretion regarding CCCA Rules. Non CCCA-compliant posts should be removed as soon as the moderator sees them. Any moderator who does NOT feel at ease with current CCCA policy ( as set forth in the "heading caption", has several remedies available to him. Policy of the CCCA is set by the CCCA Board Of Directors. If you do not like CCCA Rules, then either leave our site, or, join the CCCA, become active in Club management, and work to change our Rules. The CCCA Rules have provisions for terminating the membership of a member who is disruptive and/or disrespectful of our Rules, to the extent of creating a detriment to the Club. I am not aware of a case where this penalty has actually been imposed, but it is something to think about. Those that continually violate our Rules, and/or tolerate or encourage others to violate our Rules, should bear that in mind.

Pete Hartmann

I wasnt aware that the CCCA banned us from discussing non CCCA cars when we meet, either in person, or on this forum. I guess I better check the rule book.

Last time I checked freedom of speech was still a right in this country. If you dont like a discussion then don't participate in it.

This forum should be a place where CCCA members can come to discuss things without being jumped on. The only problem I see in this forum is the lack of participation. Part of that is probably the fear of being flamed.

Shawn Miller

DIRECTOR

Indiana Region

Peter, the rules for our meets and activities are quite clear, but the simple truth is nobody envisioned the Internet when they were written. This is whole different animal. If you can find written rules that specifically govern the way the Club?s web site is run, please let me know. It would make my job (and more so, Shawn?s) a lot simpler. The truth is, we?re still working on it. None of us have ever witnessed a communication tool quite like this.

While you?re looking at the Rulebook, you?ll notice that the Club doesn?t prohibit people from talking about other cars when they are attending our events. Coming to this Forum isn't much different than going to any other Club activity, except you don't have to get dressed.

In fact, talking about your non-CCCA approved car may be more fun for you when you are visiting with your friends, especially if that happens to be your big project at the moment. I?ll bet you?ve even done that yourself. It seems to me you?ve told us all about your fire engine on more than one occasion, and I?ll be glad to tell you more than you want to know about my BMW Isetta.

Figuring out how to live with the world of the Internet is a work in progress. We?ll eventually get it right. Until we do, I?d like to make this proposal:

[color:"blue"] For the next 90 days let?s open up the ?General Forum? to any and all conversation that pertains to the collector car hobby. Personal attacks or bad behavior will not be tolerated, nor will any ?For Sale? or commercial postings that do not pertain to cars. Posts berating other people for owning ?lesser cars? will be sent to cyber-heaven unless they are really funny. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/icons/grin.gif" alt="" /> All posts will still be subject to editing, moving or deletion, but unless they are totally off base or just plain old spam, they will be allowed to stay. We might get some good discussions going, and we might all learn something.

The rules for the ?Buy-Sell, ? ?Technical,? or ?Judging? Forums will not change. These must pertain to CCCA Full Classics or Club policy. Any inappropriate posts in those forums will be deleted, spindled or mutilated.

What say we give it a try? If it turns out to be a disaster, we can always go back to the way it currently is.

Shawn writes: "Part of that is probably the fear of being flamed."

I would say you're on to somethng, Shawn. In the several years I've read these posts, there have been scores of people that have been absolutely humiliated and run off, never to return. And that's only the ones you see; the prospective posters (future members) who never post out of disgust or fear of being flamed perhaps number in the hundreds or more.

I am not aware of any sanction that has been imposed on those who would do this to this site. It is not my business to know. However, in that we are a community of individuals who share the common bond of appreciation for old machinery, it is important for those members to know that their meeting place is one of decency, comradeship and invitation to newcomers. In fact, the lack of overt sanction on such behavior is implicit permission to act thus.

In the larger picture, none of these cars has any true importance. They are, however, a welcome diversion from the challeges of everyday life. They represent a time when the confluence of art and engineering produced things of useful beauty. This could be a pleasant place where talk of these cars could be enjoyed. I wish you well. BillP

Sounds like the West Point Honor Code..."A member will not discuss any non- CCCA car nor tolerate those who do ".

Peter: Looks like I had violated a CCCA rule that I was unaware of. Since I am a CCCA member why don't you try and have my membership revoked. Bill P your remarks about Peter in a recent thread where uncalled for and in poor taste. Persons whom complain about certain subject matter and complain it shouldn't be posted tend to be the least informed.

I promise never to mention to 1993 Chevrolet Suburban tow vehicle.

Shawn :

I really do think you should "read the Rule Book". And...with all due respect, I suggest you read my "posts" a bit more carefully. I cant imagine anyone wanting to interfere with your "freedom of speech", and I trust you will just as vigorusly defend my right to disagree with you, as I would you, in return.

Perhaps I was not clear enough as to where I am "coming from". I have always felt we all benefit by sharing as much as possible our interest in old mechanical devices, with other old car buffs. I was "early on" a vigorous advocate of "Joint Meets"; I personally wrote that section of our HandBook And Directory regarding "Joint Events". Permit me to brag a bit...that part of our HandBook seems to have worked well in providing guidance to both National and Region events as to how they can share their interest in old cars with other "historical interest" groups, WITHOUT confusing the public as to who we are and what we are about as a Club.

I also fully agree that we should be free from time to time to have a little fun, both within and without this forum. Even when I was Regional Director and on the National Board, I sometimes had fun coming to CCCA events in just about all kinds of screwy vehicles, ranging from motorcyles...airplanes...to fire engines ( but of course I did NOT attempt to PARTICIPATE in the events themselves with these non-classic vehicles).

Since I am not now involved in CCCA management, I have some degree of freedom, once I properly identify myself as only a mere member, and NOT representing the Club, to discuss my personal views on Club policy. You are in an entirely different situation. You ARE in Club management, and thus, within the context of the Club, have an obligation to carry out Club policy as it EXISTS, not as you'd like it to be. If you dont like it, and your Region has authorized you to take a given position, then by all means it is your obligation to seek change at the National Board.

Bottom line......our Rule(s ARE clear. ..the caption of this forum is clear. We are alike in one respect...both of us have "issues" with various aspects of Club policy. However, I am not clear how our present readers would benefit if I tried to use THIS forum to change what I think was bad Club policy (for example...letting into the Club guys with views...and cars...like YOURS...!). I am also not clear as to how DARE you go change our Club's rules on your own, without authority of the Board.

Let's focus on the benefit of this marvelous form of communication, by exchanging views on subjects relevant to our purpose. So, again, in case you havnt read it recently, let me underscore our caption...

" . . . PLEASE LIMIT POSTS IN THIS FORUM TO DISCUSSIONS ABOUT

THE CLASSIC CAR CLUB OF AMERICA, AND TO THE CARS

RECOGNIZED BY THE CLUB AS CCCA CLASSICS......"

Like it or not...that IS our policy. If you don't like it, of COURSE you should express your personal views - and you should seek change...but again...please carry out EXISTING Club policy.

Pete Hartmann

Let me restate my demand:

?...refrain from chastising posts that reference non-CCCA automobiles. The moderators will move them as they see fit.?

The moderators of this forum know full well the rules of this forum. There is NO reason to restate the rules.

Regular members of this forum have no place disciplining someone for inadvertently posting incorrectly in the CCCA forum. If someone does start a non-CCCA related thread the moderators will move it. Be patient, as moderators do not read posts 24 hours a day.

My demand is very clear. If someone has a problem with it then please feel free to contact me to discuss it.

Let me state it another way: I DO NOT want people harassed for making non-CCCA related posts. Those that do will be banned from this forum.

Peter

P.S. As to CCCA Moderator Chuck Conrad?s suggestion to open the CCCA forum to non-CCCA vehicles -- its certainly worth debate. However, my request is independent of that statement.

My request is not up for debate... therefore i am closing this thread.

Peter