DRIVE THEM!

Jim, I could not have said it better, If you got them, drive them. I have a 1936 Packard 1404 Club Sedan, we drive it all the time. It's not what I would call a "show car" but it does well at the local car shows and always draw a crowd whenever we take her out. The most fun the wife & I have is when we take our Packard to yard sales. When people tell me, I can't believe you're driving her around town, I tell them "Packard never built trailers"

I've never seen a car that didn't look better in motion. Wish I could have been there to see it!<P>Spare filled with water from too much washing? What a hoot.

J446<P>Double ditto on that one. <P>Just got back from a 3000 mile trek through the dessert with our relatively new almost 50 year old Austin Healey 100. We had a problem or two, but the car came home running much better than when we left. And a few problems the car has had for years were resolved!<P>I am now preparing my '27 Buick for a VMCCA tour at the end of the month. This will probably add about a thousand miles on that one, quite an effort for a car that old. But what a delight, just getting anywhere with that Buick is a thrill.<P>I think there is a place for concours type automobiles, but not in my garage. If they aren't driven, how can they be experienced? These are cars, not paintings...<P>Bill.

My 1932 Cadillac was restored in 1979 and driven 157 miles until I acquired her in October, 2001. I've only had her on the road for about four months but the odometer now has 1,700 miles. I enjoy driving my Full Classics but I don't hold those who don't in contempt. It's their auto. They paid for it. It's up to the individual to drive or not to drive.

As someone who went to Woodstock,(The festival not the movie) I certinally can relate to "Do your own thing" I also admire anyone who enjoys their car however they want to but I still believe that only by driving can one keep a car functioning properly and I feel fully operational is a worthy, if sometimes frustrating goal. I also feel that one should never restore out an important part of a cars history. In 1967 Mark Donohue and Bruce McLaren drove my Ford MK-IV to fourth overall at LeMans. (There's a link to a photo of this car on page 2 of the thread "Question") While McLaren was driving at over 200MPH the tail section blew off. McLaren stopped, threw down his helmut, retrived the tail, and continued racing. The dent his helmut put in the top of the tub is still there 35 years later. I personally feel that this dent should never be taken out.

J446:<P>What a great story about that Mk IV. While those great drivers Donohue and McLaren are sadly gone, at least that little tidbit remains. I sure wouldn't take the dent out.<P>It reminds me a little bit of the Mk II Ford driven to victory by Gurney/Foyt the year before. Seems to me that car had a bulge on the driver's side for the 6ft plus Gurney's head. Well, I could be remembering a lot of this wrong it has been quite a few years.<P>Wasn't the Mk IV known also as the "J" car? You must have one of the few Mk IV's left, seems like not many were built.<P>Bill.

You guys are quite right about this, although I love seeing well-restored cars at Grand Classics and other events. I'm glad people are motivated to do that level of restoration, but speaking personally, I'd rather drive my cars around.<P>Not that long ago, I bought a Rolls-Royce Wraith that had 256 miles showing on the odometer. The gentleman I purchased it from had restored the car ten years earlier and rolled the speedometer back to zero when he did it. He did a nice job on the restoration, but he missed the best part, driving it. <P>The car now shows about 5600 miles. After changing all the serviceable rubber parts and fixing all the little things that looked fine but didn?t work the way they should, it became a very decent tour car. I have to admit that now, it doesn't look quit as nice as it once did, but it is still very presentable. It sure is a lot more fun though.

Buicksplus<BR>The MK-IV evolved from the J Car which was built under the apendix J rules of the LeMans regulators. The narrower windshield allowed the MK-IV to reach 223MPH. The Ford MK-IV is the only car made in America to have won the 24 Hours of LeMans. The race that Duesenberg won at LeMans was a Grand Prix. Of the 4 LeMans MK-IV's that were built, mine is the only one that finished the race that is still running.<BR>Best

Why not "drive em"...?<P>My comment about a friend's saying "it would cost me $50,000. to take my hundred pointer out on the road and beat it the way you do yours"...should be taken in context - the fact is ... most people who go to the trouble and expense of doing historically accurate restorations, are not just interested in CCCA judging. They also want to "compete" in the public car shows, where "nit picking" has been refined to an art form ! They correctly assume that they are "in competition" with other cars at public car shows, and they correctly assume the wildest and fanciest, is going to get the top score, and please the crowd the most.<P>Classic Car Club Of America judging differs significantly in its objectives, from the typical public car show. We are interested in the historical accuracy of the restoration. We have no mechanism (with one recent and, in my view, ill-advised exception) for registering public approval of how "cute" a car looks, at CCCA judging events).<P>But we DO have a mechanism for recognizing that a classic, when delivered to its new owner, HAD BEEN DRIVEN. It had been GREASED, and even after one or two "start ups" the porclein manifolds may have started to show cracks. There might even be a trace of road dust on the chassis. Our JUDGING RULES specifically provide that this kind of use should NOT result in point deduction from our coveted "100 point score".<P>Again, traditional CCCA judging concepts were designed to encourage HISTORICAL ACCURACY. We can and DO take off for "over restoration" that is not historically accurate. That kind of thing is for the "crowd pleasers" type show.<P>So...a LESS THAN PERFECT classic that was driven to a CCCA judging event...if it is historically accurate..will receive 100 points, and that is why ALL classics in a given class at a WELL RUN CCCA judging event, could have 100 point scores, even tho some might be considerably more shiny and "perfect" than the others.<P>Pete Hartmann

With the wrenches I bought from Brain Joseph, who has an add on your website,and has been very helpfull, I have been able to remove and work on the wheel bearings and brakes on my Duesenberg. Over washing the car and under driving left them out of adjustment,rusty, and in need of new return springs. This was covered in a recent article in Sports Car Market Letter which described a Packard that had "unrestored" it self by not being used causing the rear brakes to become seized. Everything else seems fine and I'm looking forward to using it regularly and taking it to the AACA show on August 17 at Purchase,New York.<BR>Best<BR>Jim

Dear J-446<BR>I really commend you on your efforts. I wish you the best for years of driving.<P>P.S. On the high point early classics it is easier to take the wheels off to clean them (excepting sidemounts in covers). The next classic will have blackwall tires and wire wheels painted the color of rust. As much as I love them, no more of this double white wall stuff and chrome wire wheels.

My car has wire wheels with sidemount covers and black wall tires. The sidemount covers were a big pain to take on and off so I sold them to someone who did not mind dealing with them. Then I switched to white wall tires, now I think when I wear this set of tires out I will switch back to black wall tires. I guess I have to learn things the hard way.

Our classic cars were made to be driven when they were new and still should be driven. It is in the best interest of our club and our hobby to drive them. Nobody says "wow" when an enclosed truck or trailer is rolling down the highway. Everybody looks when a classic is DRIVEN down the highway.

Dear John<BR>Thanks! J446 is a work of (now) rolling art.<BR>The wrench I got from Brian that removes the wire wheels is a work of art also. As you know Duesenberg's I sure you've seen one but it was the first time I've seen one. It's two part operation is amazing.<BR>Buickman 32 you are so right. Early one Sunday morning I was driving my Ford Mk-IV ( there's a link to a photo of it on Page 2 of the "Question" thread) and I stopped for a cup of coffee. When I got back to the parking lot there was a 911 Porsche parked next to me. A guy,who was wearing a Porsche jacket, and his girlfriend were standing looking at my car. The guy said: "That's one of those kit cars with a VW engine right?<BR>"Not exactly"I answered. I got in and started it up. His girlfried said:"It doesn't sound like a VW." "Smart Girl" I said.<BR>Best<BR>Jim<p>[ 07-21-2002: Message edited by: J446 ]

The first time I took off a buffalo wire wheel I was really enthralled. For any of you that ever have the opportunity to watch (or try it), it is some very interesting engineering. Also, as a helpful hint, I used friction tape around the wrench to keep the scratches to a minimum.

Peter<BR>The other day I could have used one of your desert water bottles. The temp gauge on J446 headed north, I pulled over on the NYS thruway and it boiled over. I let it cool down drove off the thruway (The towing co I use isn't allowed on the thruway) It was nice to find out that they had a flatbed big enough to tow it. It turns out the last restorer had so overchromed the bolt in the fan that tensions the fan belt that it wouldn't stay tight. Fixed that and it's now in my garage. Distance driven so far about equal to distance towed but I aim to change that real soon.<BR>Best<BR>Jim

J446~<BR>I'm a long-time fan/admirer of Mark Donahue. Saw him at the Watkins Glen Formula 1 race shortly before he died. That was when you'd walk through the center of the Kendall garage and stand and watch the cars being prepped. <BR>Is your Lola the Daytona winner? What happened to it after they stole Penske's truck?

Hi...J446 and the rest of you guys...<P>Just out of idle curiosity...does anyone know when the industry changed over from the "honeycomb" type radiators, to the "modern" tube type...My recollection is this was around 1928...anyone know for sure.<P>As J446 I am sure knows, ONE of the many differences that separate the big, powerful luxury cars we now call "classics", from the ordinary car of the classic era (roughly 1925-1942) was ability to handle extreme temp. open road driving.<P>The buyer of an ordinary car of that era did not want to pay for, and thus was given, the capability to handle extremes. He was entitled to, and did get...a "good buy for the money" which was a low powered barely adequatley "cooled" "city" driver. <P>Today, it is hard to imagine, because, as I noted elsewhere, modern technology has given us even cheapo cars that drive pretty much as well as big expensive luxury cars - heck, even my Toyota RAV 4 will do very nicely at a steady 85 mph in the hottest desert up-grades, with the air conditioning on....!<P>But that was a whole different culture. I remember during World War Two, when we came across the country in our Packard "120" (a middle class car Packard made, in order to survive when the luxury car market fell apart during the Depression)... It was a GREAT car for the money...which was about one fourth what a Packard Twelve cost. By comparing the size of the radiator in a "120"...with the size of one in a Packard Twelve, you can see why one goes a HELL of a lot faster without over-heating.<P>Thus, as J446 notes, while poor / ignorant "restoration" can ruin the performance of even the mighty Dusenberg, it, like any other expensive, powerful luxury car of that era, was and remains a joy to drive under the worst conditions imaginable...again...assuming it is PROPERLY MAINTAINED. <P>Water bags were sold in Ford and Chevrolet dealerships. I do not recall ever seeing one sold in a luxury car dealership.....!<P>Pete Hartmann<BR>Big Springs, AZ

Peter,<P>I didn?t know you were a Lagonda Lover? Something new? Maybe I should take back everything I?ve said about you too! Well, at least, maybe some of it. <P>Chuck

So what's a Lagonda, must be Pete's lawn tractor. <P>BTW, my memory of the desert water bag is that it was for passengers, not the car. You hung in out to keep it cool, from the evaporation through the bag. Of course, passengers in classics wouldn't need them, they knew better than to travel on hot days.<P>I have a '28 and '27 Buick, both have honeycomb radiators, seems to me my friend's '31 had a fin and tube. My radiator man says it he isn't sure the fin and tube type works better than honeycomb, though it is definitely cheaper to manufacture. And the fin and tube can be rodded, while the honeycomb cannot.<P>Bill