48 Imperial On EBay

Hi Peter ( my name is Peter too....which proves you and I are the greatest....!)<P>You proposed an interesting question - it illustrates the confusion that has arisen as more and more people with nice old cars they like, and/or nice old cars their pappy had or has stored behind the barn that they want to sell....and/or nice old cars THEY want to sell.....have obtained "classic" status for them!<P>Here's my suggestion on how you can get an answer to your interesting question. You are NOT going to like the answer! You need PERSPECTIVE !<P> To get a perspective on what the CLASSIC CAR CLUB OF AMERICA was originally all about, may I suggest a little research.it would be helpful to look thru its early publications, and see what types of vehicles members brought to meets. You might also look at CLASSIC CARS AND ANTIQUES by Robert J. Gottlieb. Originally published in 1952, it provides a "freeze frame" of what was in the minds of car buffs, and why they picked an obscure and little used word ( "classic") to name our Club.<P>You might also want to review back issues (from the late 1950's thru early 1970's) of the Club's publication "THE CLASSIC CAR". Of particular interest would be comparing the "WEBSTER'S DICTIONARY" definition of the word "classic" as it was up thru the 1950's, with how the word has evolved today.<P>Bottom line - we in the CCCA "made" the word CLASSIC. As originally defined, it was ideal for describing the cars that were to be of interest for this particular Club.<P>As orginally defined, it was quite clear which cars were "classics" and which were not. Simply stated, we meant "the best of the best". In Gottlieb's book, you will find a picture of my '34 Packard Super Eight standard four door sedan, underneath a much larger, more elegant Packard Twelve Formal Town Car. Gottlieb dismisses the ordinary Packard with the note "<BR> <BR> "the differences between this car<BR> and the true classic are so great<BR> that further discussion is <BR> unnecessary.."<P>As you may have noticed from my prior 'posts', the Club has been a "victim of its own success". It happened so fast we really didn't realize it at first...this phenomena, that by pointing out how superior the TRUE classic was to the ordinary old car of its day, we made the word "classic" desirable. And with that success, came a flood of people who joined the CCCA, with nice cars they liked (or, more typically...wanted to sell ! ) .<P>Anyone with an education in art or architect. history knows the word "classic" refers to a specific school of design, in which "form follows function". By definition, cars built after the late 1930's are stream-lined, i.e. headlights, radiators, hoods, fenders, all moulded to gether, and thus by definition not of the "classic" school of design. My own '38 Packard Twelve, with its still separate hood and fenders and headlights, is clearly at the END of the "classic" school of design, as you can see streamlining starting to "blur" the separate shapes.<P>Of course you point out the silliness of allowing one stream-lined Chrysler product into the Club, and excluding the other. It is arbitrary, confusing, discriminatory..all those things. And it certainly must infuriate those with the "excluded" cars, who most dearly would love to get "classic" status so they can sell them! So - there's your "answer"...THERE IS NO 'ANSWER'..!<P>Down thru the years, more and more of the "old guard" of the CCCA die off, wander off to watch BRITNEY SPEARS dance videos, or find other ways to amuse themselves, you will see more and more confusion over what the CCCA was orginally about. I recall the first years (up thru the early 1960's) when we were a MUCH smaller club (about 1,500 members) as a Club with less confusion over what we were about, and what we wanted to do within the context of this particular Club.<P>Bottom line, when you have done the research, and have a better perspective over what this Club WAS about, you will see why what it is increasingly BECOMING, makes little sense to most auto enthusiasts. <P>Again, I am responding as a private individual. I am a long-time CCCA member, but I am not currently involved at ANY level in CCCA management. My opinons are my own.<P><BR>Pete Hartmann

Peter G:<P>According to my handbook the '48 Imperial is a Classic if it ia a Custom Imperial, Crown Imperial or C15,20,24,27,33,37,or C-40. If that is so, the Imperial is a "carry over" Classic, it is essentially identical to a Classic that was built in 1942.<P>The T & C, no doubt a far more valuable and important car in terms of collector value, was not built until after the war and is thus not considered a Full Classic. Ditto, of course, for the Ford Sportsman and countless other important vehicles built after the "Classic Era", a period that folks in the know have decided is from 1925 to 1942.<P>You only need to peruse this forum to see that this policy is not endorsed by all CCCA members. But that is the policy, and efforts to revise it in the past have usually been defeated by the membership. Though it was recently adjusted on the early end to admit cars built before 1925 that are essentially idential to cars built afterwards.<P>In my opinion, the official "Classic Car" label has little effect on the value of old cars. The T & C will continue to be worth more than many cars that are Full Classics, simply because of its rarity and general desirability. It is, Classic or not, simply a very fine and unusual if not spectacular car, and it is unlikely to lose much value over time.<P>Bill<BR>Albuquerque

To Peter Gariepy,<BR>As current Chairman of the Classification Committee I would like a shot at a pragmatic answer to your question about the Classic status of the Town & Country. Buickplus gave you some excellent information into some of the why' and wherefore's. There are a group of cars that exist "on the edge" of Classic status and the Town & Country is one of those. While the T&C shares much of its mechanicals and some of its sheetmetal with the Crown Imperial, it is a sub-model of the New Yorker (C-39) model. The New Yorker, as great a car as it is, was quite a bit less expensive car than the Crown Imperial and has not been seriously considered for Classic Status. The 8 cylinder T&C convertible, the one everybody loves, is a post war (WWII) creation. There were a very small number of 8 cylinder Town & Country cars built before the war and no convertibles for regular retail sale. The others were Royal or Windsor based 6 cylinder cars, mostly station wagon types. The somewhat forgotten group of post war T&C models are the 6 cylinder sedans, built on a modified Windsor chassis. They were marketed right alongside the 8 cylinder convertibles. The policy of the CCCA has been to "accept those production series in which the entire line of body styles may qualify." Consequently, the T&C has a double hit, sort of, in that it has no direct pre war antecedent and it is coupled with a model built on a "less-classic", if you will excuse the term, chassis.<BR>An area of confusion also exists about the acceptance of post WWII cars that is relative to this issue. In 1986 the Club published a "Reaffirmation of CCCA policy" stating, "Classic status for post World War II cars up to and including the 1948 models will be considered only for cars that are representative of the Pre War Classic era." In the recently published wording concerning the acceptance of pre 1925 cars the term "Virtually Identical" is used which may be more explicit that the previous term "Representative of", but the connotation would be similar in that accepted post WWII cars are an extension of those built prior to the war and not new post war models.<BR>Buickplus is very much on target with the note that Classic status does not have a serious bearing on value. The T&C is an excellent example that could be followed by any number of auction reports of increasingly expensive cars built before, during and after the Classic Era. <BR>Just one more boring set of numbers to consider: From 1925 through 1948, that time period referred to by the Club as the Classic Era, U.S. factories produced 61,513,967 passenger cars. Of that number, the estimate of Full Classic cars is approximately 1,366,843, give or take a few. That does not count any of the cars built before 1925 or after 1948. There are a heck of a lot more non-classic cars around than there are Classics, and within that huge number of cars are some very, very interesting and desirable automobiles. Like most CCCA members I own some of them. Becaue they are not on the list of accepted Full Classic cars does not mean they are less interesting or, in many cases, less valuable.<BR>Thanks,<BR>Jon Lee

Excellent responses! It gives me a better understanding of what constitutes a "full classic" as defined by the CCCA. <P>I don't own a T&C but hope to someday... "full classic" or not. I'm also in lust with the 48 Imperial although i dont find it as sexy as the T&C.<P>I do own a 48 New Yorker and it will always have a place in my garage - after all, it was my first car. <P>Thanks again.<P>Peter

Oh yea... any clue what the Imperial in question is worth?<P>Peter

Peter:<P>I looked at the Imperial on e-bay, what a clean and beautiful car, it looks mostly original!<P>I have a 1999 Old Car Value guide that lists a C-40 Imperial (I assume that is what that is, though the ad says Crown Imperial)in condition 3 as worth about $ 7500. That sounds very low, but there is not that much demand for these large cars. Too bad, they are so rare and special.<P>I would be more optimistic than Old Car Value Guide, I think you could get 15K for that car if properly marketed. It would be great car for family touring or caravans.<P>Needless to say, this is but a small fraction of what a similarly conditioned T&C would cost.....Might be a good idea to buy it while waiting a few years to line up a T&C.<P>Bill.

Several years ago, about 7 I think, I sold a very nice quality 48 Crown Imperial Limousine. The car had about 60,000 miles, mostly original paint, beautiful original gray & blue interior. The car has since scored 93 points in CCCA judging. If my excellent-but-short memory serves, the price was somewhere between $15 and $20,000. <BR>Jon Lee