QUESTION

Would be very interesting to see a picture of this "superior" classic that outshines everything ever built. Would it be possible for Mr. H to post a picture of this wonder?

Guys...if I HAD two hundred bucks in 1955..I could have bought a hell of a lot more interesting Packard Twelve than I have. What I GOT for twenty five bucks, was a well worn but still serviceable '38 Formal Sedan. Two hundred, in those days, would have gotten me a MINT town car or Brunn.<P>Big CLOSED classics are not going for that much today. I have seen a number of production bodied CLOSED Packard Twelves go in the low thirties. Since I already have one, no need to get another. Anyway, I am tapped out...just spent close to two hundred grand on my "new" airplane ( purchase price plus some "mods"....).<P>Yeah..I am getting to the point now...where THINK I can e mail photos. If you guys want to see what my "chicken coop" looks like, E mail me your ID...and I will knock off a few with my new digital camera. BUT...fair's fair...let's see what YOUR classics look like.<P>Pete Hartmann

Peter: REREAD MY POST AGAIN AND ANSWER MY MAIN QUESTION. I could really care less if you spent 200 grand on a plane. That is your problem

For Pack 53...YES...if that is what you wanted...YES I would go buy a Packard Twelve or Cad. 16 "if I didnt already have one"<P>PFH

Many CCCA members are concerned about the aging of the membership. A number of remdies are offered by those who consider it a problem. Packard 53 however brings up a good point, albeit inadvertantly. The Packard 12, Cadillac 16, Duesenberg, etc., especially rag top models generally cost somewhere in the six figures and more. True there are some modest costing Full Classics. But they are much less sought after. How many 18 year old kids can afford a $100,000+ auto? Obviously, not many. Until middle age few collectors are willing to spend that much money on a hobby. I envy those who were around in the '50s and 60's and purchased Full Classics at prices that don't make headline news.

I think all of the above have touched on something. The hobby will never be what it was in the "Golden Era" late 1960's early 1970's. Price may be to blame, but there is so much more to do with whatever extra money you may have. Most people I know are downsizing their collections and finishing projects,as well as getting into other hobby fields.

1937hd45 ~ Another possible reason for today's hobby being so different from the '60s & 70's is society, and what is the "correct" way of raising children. When my children were growing up in the '60s, they went where Mom and Dad took them and did what Mom and Dad decided the family would do. In my family it was Antique AND Classic car activities.<P>Now that my kids are in their 40s they tell me that their friends lives revolve around what their children want to do. Mom and Dad often no longer control the family, the children do. Just look at some of the TV ads. The children make the decisions for the family and the parents are portrayed as dimwits. Eight year olds are telling us what to buy. <P>As the politicians always say, "It's for the CHILDREN," and it is politically incorrect for it to be otherwise.<P>With that in mind, is it any wonder that the upcoming generation has less interest in the cars than we old pharts did at the same point in our lives? I wonder how much pleasure they will get out of playing soccer when they are 60+ years old?<P>hvs<P>PS: I got my Classic for $25 in 1951 and have kept it for 51 years, and through two restorations. Unfortunately the last new top cost more the the original 1941 selling price of the car. But then stamps were 3 cents in '41.

Our changing hobby is an interesting and important subject. The National Board of Directors along with many of the Regional Boards have been discussing this for many years, searching for ideas to strengthen the membership base. The fact that our membership is aging is indisputable. The fact that CCCA membership is at all-time high levels is somewhat contradictory to the perceived problem of falling participation. The main object of Board level discussions is to avoid real declining membership in the future. The best probable way to do that, in the short term, is to build interest and membership now. One of the best ways to do that is through interesting events and good publicity of those events. We have the interesting events but the publicity may be lagging behind. Our Public Relaitions Chairman, Dennis Schellin, is always looking for new and interesting ways to get the CCCA name and our events exposed to the general hobbyist. Please give Dennis a shout with your ideas! This website and discussion forum is an excellent tool, providing we concentrate on the enthusiastic people, interesting events and exciting cars.<BR>Another indisputable fact is the high prices realized for high-end Classic Cars, such as the Duesenbergs, V-16 Cadillacs and others. Let's not forget that there are a lot of very interesting cars on our Approved List that can be in your garage for much less money. There are finite numbers of Packard 12's and Marmon 16's, so not everyone will get one, nor does every CCCA member want one. That's what makes our events so good...our diversity. What can you get for under $25,000 in a Full Classic? In the latest edition of Hemmings Motor News, these are some that are currently for sale:<BR>1937 Cord Custom Beverly,$21,000<BR>1934 Cadillac V-8 Limousine, $19,800<BR>1936 Cadillac 75 Sedan, $22,500<BR>1940 Cadillac 62 Sedan, $18,000<BR>7 other Cadillacs through 1947<BR>1931 LaSalle Cabriolet, $22,000<BR>1947 Lincoln Continental Coupe, $10,000<BR>1928 Packard 526 Coupe, $18,900<BR>1947 Packard 7 passenger sedan, $10,000<BR>1928 Stutz Limousine, $22,000<BR>That is just from a quick glance, so I'm sure there are lots more,and some others that are projects are even less.<BR>While this is certainly not food stamp money, for those with some discretionary money there are reasonably priced cars available. <BR>Our job, as CCCA members, is to spread the good word about this Club, its activities, the cars we play with and the people we meet while doing that.<BR>Thanks for listening while I preach!<BR>Jon Lee

I do not agree with you guys about the "golden years" of the CCCA going into the 1970's. I have been attending CCCA-related events since I was a teen-ager in the early 1950's (a couple of years after the movement got started).<P>Our membership quickly got up to around 1,500 or so. In some ways, our own success injured our original purpose. A little-used archaic word we chose to best symbolize which cars we were for ("CLASSIC") became, by the mid-1960's, thanks to our efforts, something EVERYONE wanted emulate. And therein lies the problem - more and more people wanted to benefit from the status our our Club's concept, without having a sincere interest in what we were about. <P>Compunding the changes in socieity our other "chatters" have pointed out, is a general shift away from a technically competent society that knew how to MAKE things, towards as so called "service" economy. An overwhelming majority of my high school class HAD to be fairly decent auto mechanics just to get to school in the morning ! When they graduated, they had a CHOICE of going on with education, or walking into nice paying jobs in which their ability to do basic math and accomplish tasks with hands accustomed to making things work. <P>Today's high schoolers have a much higher rate of dysfunction. Due to the decreasing interest in basic technology, they are increasingly suitable only for "Do you want fries with that" kind of jobs. Lacking training in the arts and culture, they have little or no interest in the factors that made a classic car so much more interesting than the ordinary old car of its era.<P>This bears a direct relationship to how people related to classic cars down thru the years. In those early years (up to the mid-1960's), the people who owned the big classics, owned them because they actually liked them as machines, for what they were. There sure as hell was no "status" to owning a classic car - we were looked on as something to be laughed at. The overwhelming majority of classic car owners worked on their own cars, and thus knew and could intelligently discuss WHY they liked this or that aspect of this or that big engined classic. In those early years, it would not have occured to anyone to want to participate in a classic car event with a nice ordinary middle-price range eight cylinder Cadillac or Packard - look at photographs of our early events...mentally "lift the hoods"....you saw the "best of the best"...the "biggest of the biggest".<P>By the mid 1960's, the concept of the "classic" had become so popular, we actually had "status", and attracted an increasing number of people whose objectives in having a car they could call "classic" were less and less connected to the machines themselves.<P>I do not know what the per-centage of our membership these days is, as to people who actually LIKE their classic cars for what they are and can do, compared to those who have them just to "show off" at public events ( where what the car is mechanically, and what they can do, is irrelevant).<P>As some "chatters" in here correctly point out, it would be absurd to take an art object that tens or even hundreds of thousands of dollars had been spent to make it virtually perfect, and rough it up. The GRAND CLASSIC, where the objective is respect the REAL history of the classic, by restoring it to the condition it was when new, is just ONE part of the classic car club movement. In the earlier years, our driving events were the other important "leg" on which our movement stands.<P>Frankly, who wants to drive ANYTHING in modern metropolitan area traffic these days ! As late as the mid 1960's, many of the roads leading out of the greater Los Angeles area were two lane, much as they were in the 1930's. A caravan of classics out for a picnic or dinner meet, where a pleasant place to park could be found, was a delight. <P>But these days..? Gawd....the Sepulveda Pass leading north out of Los Angeles on a weekend...c'mon...it is HELL these days. The same is true of any metroplitan area where there are large numbers of classic cars. The owners, for many good reasons, just dont want to participate in the kind of meets that got the Club going in the early years, and who can blame them. As stationary show-pieces at public events, they are nice to look at, but you certainly arent going to get the same understanding of what the true classic is all about.<P>How does this affect the future of the Club? Who knows. We can make some predictions - we know that the Club could be half or even a forth of its present size, and be a vibrant force for the preservation of our technical history. Again, look at the impact we made from the 1950's to the early 1960s, when we had less than a FOURTH or our present numbers.<P>Has the whole idea of the word "classic" been changed ? Of course - would would deny that EVERYONE now recognizes the word has value to sell ANYthing you want to get rid of! Should we spend a great deal of time worrying about it....hell no..I have already wasted too much of your time here...NOW...for something IMPORTANT ( where in hell IS my BRITNEY SPEARS DANCE VIDEO, anyway....!)<P>Pete Hartmann

If I had a magic lamp I would wish that all old "classic" cars could not sell for more than $10. Then people who really appreciate them would get to own them. All the rest who wanted everyone to know how much money they had would be doomed to owning "Range Rovers".<BR> I believe that within ten to twenty years from now, a 65 Mustang will be worth more than a 31 Cad V12 , V16 and no I haven't started "celebrating" the 4th yet. There are a number of muscle cars that do already. There are so many "classics" sitting around the market place that are looking for buyers and lots more in garages just sitting. When they do sell it's usually to another dealer who jacks up the price some more. Take a look at the big auctions. You don't see many prewar of any make. <BR> Am I bitter? Well you bet I am. I figure that I'll have to wait till 2025 to get my first Duesy but by then people will be putting Lexus engines in them!

As a relatively young member (43) I think that everything is generally fine. there will always be "more demand" for a 56 tbird than a 12 cylinder packard, and who really cares. We shouldnt be threatend by car collectors who collect muscle cars, they clearly have the money to buy just about anything they want, they just need educated.<P>It is our job to educate them by getting our cars out there where they can be seen, not just taking them on CCCA sponsored events. We could also use to "open up" our events a bit. I don't think we want mob scenes at our grand classics, but select spectators would not take away from them in my opinion.<P>The cost of actually participating in this club is pretty stiff as well. A family of 4 recently attended the grand experience, and had to pay 4 registration fees(it wasnt me, but that is why i didnt bring my whole brood). give me a break! How can you expect the next generation to be interested in these cars if you make them stay at home with a babysitter. I know of at least 3 dedicated long term members who attended that event but chose not to "register" and didnt attend the 40 dollar a plate dinners either. <P>What does the "registration fee" really get you anyway? Heck, I paid as much to register for that event as peter here paid for his 12 cylinder packard! HA<P>The cost of the cars isnt the problem (I just missed a Full Classic 41 cadillac sedan for 4500 bucks last month!, yes it was drivable) its the cost of our events. This is the most expensive car club i am a member of. While our membership numbers are at at all time high I dont see our participation numbers at an all time high. many of these members have joined as a result of this website. we need to do something proactive to get these people involved or we will lose them.<P>Also we need to be NICE and WELCOMING in our discussions in this forum. the world is watching here. <P>As my mom used to say if you dont have something nice to say, SHUT UP! <P> <P>Shawn Miller<BR>Indiana Region

Friends:<P>It is difficult to raise much concern from CCCA members about the club's future as long as its membership is at at all time high. But I still think the aging process of the members is inevitable and will eventually become a real problem for the club. <P>Fact is, this club is fairly unattractive to younger members. I am 56 myself and I am one of the youngest members of our chapter. Most of our members are over 75 years old, and many are in poor health and find it difficult to participate in events.<P>I also agree with Jon Lee that the cost of the cars is not all there is too it. There are "cheap" Classics available. But face it, you know that these cars are either fairly unnattractive as classics go or are total wrecks in need of a 75K restoration. <P>When looking at the "low" prices of these cars, consider the kind of alternative collector cars that one could buy that are in the range of 10 to 25K. You can buy a very clean and servicable 65 Mustang convertible for 15K, or do even better with any number of early 60's sports cars or convertibles. Worse still, you can get a flashy street rod for about the same price. You can drive these cars in parades, smoke the tires, take them on tour, impress your friends far more than you ever would with a 39 Cadillac 75 limo that smokes, vapor locks and needs work.<P>I don't think there are any simple answers, but I remain convinced that broading of the Full Classics list to include more and newer cars will eventually be part of the solution. We also need events that appeal to younger folks and new members, many of whom don't like sitting around country clubs gawking at "look but don't touch" million dollar cars and sipping cocktails. They want a hobby they can participate in.<P>Of course, there is no need for any of these ideas if you don't think that there is a problem. We can just keep our beloved club just like it's always been, and take it with us to our graves. But I don't think this is necessary, the CCCA can remain committed to its founding principals and also attract younger members to continue its legacy.

As a new member (less than 1 year) to the CCCA club, but a long time car collector, I must agree with Shawn Miller’s point regarding how expensive this club can be. I guess you could call me a young member, I am 45 with two children still at home. It has taken me years to get the car I now have, ‘29 Studebaker President Brougham, it needs work, but is a driver, so there are times when the choice is between attending a CCCA function, with the expense of a family of four, or saving the money and doing a little more work on the car. An example is a recent CCCA chapter activity, a tour with lunch, the lunch for my family is going to be 100.00, I don’t spend that much on dinner out for our family, let alone lunch. So, the family is staying home, my brother (also a 43 year old Shawn) with his ’29 President touring will tag along and when it is time for lunch we tour by our selves to a more affordable location. My nephew is also going along with my brother and I, he has a ’29 President also, and he is only 24 years old and has two small children. Yes, 24 and he has a 1929 Studebaker President. Who says that younger people don’t have an interest in old cars, I am sure the exposure of being around his uncles while growing up has effected him positively towards early cars. And the same thing can happen to others. One of my desires is to be able to drive my car on a CARavan someday, right now my family budget and the cost of attending a CARavan are worlds apart. Maybe someday in the future there will be a CARavan close to home that is within our budget so that I won’t have to read about it later in the club magazine, but can experience it first hand ourselves. I would love for my daughters to go on a CARavan with us before they leave home and start families of their own.

Just an observation from someone that has been in the old car hobby for 40 years. How would a non CCCA member ever find out about an upcoming event? I've owned a 1928 Packard and a 1933 Lagonda, both classics but never thought of joining a club that can't be seen by the general public.

I hesitated to start this discussion here since I am trying to avoid politically charged subjects, but I think this needs to be discussed. maybe we should start a separate topic for it. I do know that a national Board member is bringing these cost issues up at that level so we may see a change there soon.<P>in my opinion kids should be able to come to any and all of our events free or almost free. I have never met a kid that could eat $40 bucks worth of food.<P>I think it is important to involve them in things like CARavans since our nation is quickly becoming "Homogenized", and our unique regionalism is disappearing at a rapid pace. 10 years from now it may be impossible to find any store other than Walmart in a small town.<P>As far as inviting people to our events, we simply need to publicize them. Trust me the public is interested in this. There should be a press release sent out to all local media whenever we have a grand classic or CARAvan. Feature articles would result. We should have our own show on Speedvision. Admission could be charged to non members which would generate money for the host region and help off set the costs to members. this would also keep it from becoming a free for all or mob scene. <P>If people are afraid it would get too crowded to properly judge and tabulate, then we could just make the public admission hours limited.<P>The biggest hurdle to expanding our club to people in my age group, are in my opinion to dispell the following myths:<P>1 the cars are too expensive for most people.<BR>2 the cars arent drivable.<BR>3 parts are unobtainable.<BR>4 servicing them is difficult.<BR>5 only the rich and famous need apply.<P>This will take education and time, but will be worth it. <P>We are but temporary custodians of these rolling pieces of history. It is part of our job to find someone to take care of them after our time is past. <P>Shawn Miller<BR>Indiana Region

Shawn, Is it true that in the CCCA the owner and not the vehicle is judged? I've been told that on a rainy day those "special" owners never have to take the car out of a trailer, and go on to win whatever class they are in.<p>[ 07-05-2002: Message edited by: 1937hd45 ]

Shawn:<P>I concur completely with your comments on the costs of events, particularly high costs for children attending. One reason this happens is simply because so few members have young children of their own, it is just not on their radar screens. <P>I am running a VMCCA tour event this summer and we have included friendly rates for kids. We have zero admission charge for kids 14 and under, and banquet charges half for kids.<P>Unfortunately, we still attracted very few families with children to our tour, but there are some families with grandchildren taking advantage of the program. I think it is going to take some time for tourists and club organizers to understand how important it is to have kids coming on these tours. I am afraid there are still a few members out there who see children as a pain in the neck who might scratch their cars or get in the way.

1937 re judging: My 1933 Packard has always won first place at a CCCA Grand Classic until it won everything there is to win. She's been judged in the sun and in the rain, but I have always had to take her out of the trailer and onto the field. I live more than 100 miles from the heart of my CCCA region and am not active other than for Grand Classics. I have heard the rumor of favortism but have never experianced it. However, I don't know how my 1932 Cadillac rated a 99.75 score at the last Grand Classic in Florida. It's just not that good from the Grand Classic perspective but runs great.

Post Script: The last Grand Classic was opened to AACA members. Quite of few showed up and I believe had a very nice time. It was held at the Collier Automotive Museum in Naples, Florida. There was no room for more spectators and the Museum prohibited more people from coming.

To 1937,<BR>I hope I can help dispell a very nasty rumor. As a past National Head Judge, Area Head Judge and Grand Classic Coordinator I can assure you that if you want your car to win an award it must come out of the trailer. Several years back at a Grand Classic in Valley Forge PA, we were visited by hurricane Bertha. Several owners wished to have their cars judged in the trailer and the requests were declined. The cars were brought out. At another event a couple of years ago, an exhibitor did not want to start his car as it was situated on an incline and he was afraid it would run into the car in front. This after all four wheels were chocked! The owner was informed that if the car was not started, those categories requiring the car to be running would be scored unsatisfactory, or a full 5 point deduction in each one. He started the car, the car was judged and it scored very well.<BR>At the Grand Classic at Hickory Corners, my wife's Bentley was judged by a team that included three members of our home region who were good friends of our's. They found things wrong with the car that I didn't know about!<BR>If you show a Car at a CCCA National event, it will be judged by the rules. While I can't speak to what may have happened 40 years ago, but I can assure you that our current Judging system and Judges Accreditation program is taken quite seriously by our members.<BR>I hope this helps you feel more confident about having your car judged.<BR>Jon Lee