Jon Lee's article in CCCA Bulletin

Buickplus<P>My Sears Riding Mower is "fine and unusual". At least I think so. And I think it looks GREAT. My daddy had one.<P>Personally, I get all excited when I see a nicely maintained 1949 DeSoto taxi-cab. I had such wonderful experiences in those things...<P>All depends on "what lights your fire"....<P>Or does it ? Say..buddy...this is the CLASSIC Car Club Of America. There is a BUICK Club of America...and a LaSalle Club of America. Their events are FULL of nice Buick Centuries, and La Salles. When we hold "joint events" with these guys, we have a ball sharing in how proud we ALL are of good cars ! <P>"GOOD" cars....cars we like because we relate to them, or think they look good. Sorry....this is not the Club for that...<P>Suggestion. Get some back issues of THE CLASSIC CAR ( headquarters CCCA magazine) and see what we are, how we came to be. Go to a large public library with a decent automotive section, and see if you can find CLASSIC AND SPEICAL INTEREST CARS by founding member Robert J. Gottlieb.<P>Then open your current CCCA HandBook And Directory. Open it to the page on<BR> <BR> SIGNIFICANT CLUB POLICY STATEMENTS<P>where you will find <P> "dillution is license to destroy"<P>Did it ever occur to you that a good number<BR>of us dont WANT "new blood".. that would bring in such cars?<P>I agree with you fully...if I were rich enough in 1929 to own a Buick 90, I'd probably also buy a Century to play with. But..then again..if I could have afforded a Buick 90...then...I would have instead chosen a CADILLAC 90...<P>Again..."different stroke for different folk".<P><BR>Pete Hartmann

typo error..in the above post...obiously, I meant 1939...not 1929....!

I believe you have misquoted the ?Significant Club Policy Statements,? as found in the Member?s Handbook and Directory. The words are there, but not in the context (or sentence structure) you use them in. The paragraph which I believe your are referring to says:<P><I>?License to permit 'dilution' through deviation from the Club?s avowed and published objective, that being the ?restoration and preservation? of Classic cars, is license to destroy the organization through diminution of the high values and standards we have set for ourselves.?</I><P>You may find it interesting to read the first ?Significant Club Policy Statement? dated December 2, 1956. It is a legacy from our Club?s early founders, which I believe sums things up pretty well...<P>It says:<P><I>Inasmuch as it has come to the attention of the Board of Directors from time to time that some members of the Club are interested in automobiles of the 1925-48 period which have not been recognized as ?Classics? by the Club, and since some of the Regions have expressed doubt as to the proper disposition of such cars at Meets, the Board establishes the following delineation of Club Policy:</I><P><I>1.The club recognizes a degree of kinship of all cars of the Classic period and, in particular, those which have demonstrated that degree of durability, which is one of the major attributes of a Classic car. The Club therefore salutes those clubs, such as the Model A Restorers Club, devoted to particular cars of that era.</I><P><I>2.The Club lauds the activity of its members in demonstrating ability to restore any cars of the Classic era, and is always glad to see evidence of such ability, even if applied to other than Classic cars.</I><P><I>3.However, as stated in the preamble (now Article 1) to the Club?s Bylaws, the Club?s objectives pertain only to ?Fine and unusual foreign or domestic motorcars built, in the main, between and including the years 1928 and 1948 and distinguished for their respective fine design, high engineering standards and superior workmanship.?<BR>The Board firmly believes in maintaining this fixed objective without deviation or dilution.</I><P><I>4.Therefore, it will continue to be the policy that in all Club events the only cars eligible for participation will be those cars designated in the current Club Directory as Classic Cars.</I><P>It is important to not make judgements from out of context quotes.<p>[ 05-17-2002: Message edited by: Chuck Conrad ]

Chuck...you lost me...what is the point of your last "post"...say...you arent making fun of my choice in riding lawn mowers...are you...? I mean...after all....I LIKE my Sears Riding Mower..and it has cute plastic wheels.....and Sears sold a lot of Riding Mowers....and I think it looks cuter than those big industrial mowers....now...dosnt that make it a classic.. ( besides...I want to sell it....! )<P>Pete Hartmann<BR>Big Springs, Arizona

My point was your quote of the Significant Club Policy Statements was not accurate. <P>I'm sure your Sears lawnmower is a very fine machine, but my Kubota diesel lawn tractor is a <I>real</I> classic. It doesn't bother me a bit that it is only welcome at a CCCA event if it is used to mow the field. <p>[ 05-17-2002: Message edited by: Chuck Conrad ]

Hey Peter:<P>You should submit your tractor to the classification committee, I suppose if it is big and heavy enough, costs enough, and they didn't make many of them, perhaps they will put it on their list. You may have to stand in line behind a few 18 cylinder locomotives, they are far better qualified.<P>Seriously, one thing (not the only thing!) that you often say that bothers me is the idea that cars being made Full Classics will increase their value, so anyone submitting a "common man" car is just trying to increase the value of their car. <P>This may have been true in the 50's, but it isn't today. The CCCA has been so stagnant in dealing with their precious list that it has really become completely irrevelent in the world of collector car marketing. Check out Hemmings and see how often a Full Classic seller even mentions that his car is a Full Classic. Is a Cadillac 62 or 60S worth more than a 61? Have you seen a big spike in prices for pre 1925 Classics lately, now that they can be admitted to the "club"? <P>Fact is, the big, spectacular Full Classics are expensive due to their rarity, physical presense, historical significance and general collectibility. People want these cars and they are willing to pay plenty for them. Whether or not they are recognized by the CCCA is largly irrevelent. Look at all the expensive collector cars commanding fabulous prices today, like Cobras, Ferarris, GT 40's, even '59 Cadillacs or Corvettes. Or other valuable non-classics like 34 Ford roadsters or the Ford Sportsman. Do buyers of these cars know or care whether or not their cars are recognized by the CCCA?<P>My position is the CCCA needs to expand it's list not to benefit the cars that are added, but rather for the benefit of the CCCA itself.

Hey Buickplus:<P>You are "in denial" in your statement that today, to the effect car buffs dont care about CCCA "acceptability lists". <P>WRONG. Nothing has changed down thru the years. EVERYONE wants to call their car a "classic". The passions about the use of the word "classic" , and the wishes that this or that "really nice old car" be included, are stronger than ever. Just attend ANY automotive hobbyist's event, and LISTEN to the people express themsleves on the issue about whether or not their particular "favorite" is a classic, and how mean that snobby old bunch of geezers is, for not agreeing with them.<P>Age of members WILL take a toll on the membership roster. Who knows...in ten or twenty years, the Club may be HALF its present size...or even a QUARTER....<P>Now...if that is so terrible, then, logically, (at least using YOUR logic) we should DOUBLE or TRIPLE the size of the Club any way we can.<P>Problem...there really is a Classic Car Club Of America, and it was incredibly successful about awakening the american automotive hobby public to how nice the word "classic" was...when it was an EIGHTH of its present size ! <P>We agree. I trust, the Classic Car Club Of America introduced the concept and the word "classic" to the auotmotive hobby, and the idea caught on like wild-fire. Those early Motor Trend articles by Jaderquist, articles and books by Bob Gottlieb, caught on with such force, that even today the "wanna be's" of the automotive hobby want to "get a piece of the action".<P>It is increasingly hard now to find a SINGLE page in ANY automotive publication in which there are "old cars" or "hobby cars" or "collector cars". EVERYONE wants SO desparately to call their car a "classic". And look how ANGRY they get when you point out what this Club is all about, and why. Get real. People KNOW. Most people arent stupid...there is a REASON why there is so much passion attached to this issue..your average guy in the automotive street has a pretty good working idea in his head what a REAL classic is. "If I had kept dad's old Beltchmaster V-13, today it would be worth.....etc..... THAT is why this issue generates so much passion. <P>Pete Hartmann

While this is a charged issue evidently by the tone of these posts, as a younger member, i think it is all a bunch of hot air! Lighten up already, this hobby is supposed to be fun!<P>My 35 Standard Avon could maybe qualify as a full classic, but I probably will never bother to go thru the motions of nominating it for classic status. it is significantly smaller (one might say ahead of its time) than a packard or duesenberg and not nearly as sophisicated mechanically.<P>It wont be necessarily worth more if designated a full clasic because supply and demand dictates such things and there just isnt much demand for a car few people have ever heard of. <P>But the purchase of it when I was 14 lead me to this club, where I was accepted, and allowed to take it on local drives and such. I never felt unwelcome with it. I have always been treated very well by this fine group of people. <P>We always welcome other special interest cars at our regional outings. most of our members have non-classics as well.<P>the only benefit I see to having a full classic is being able to have it judged at a grand classic. Outside of the nice trophies we award though i tend to have more fun just attending and driving versus polishing all day! ha! <P>So, bring out your buick centurys, lincoln zephyrs, chrysler town and countrys, and lasalles to an indiana region drive! We have a nice one scheduled next month in southern Ohio.<P>they all seem like neat cars to me! <P>Shawn Miller <BR>Asst Director<BR>Indiana Region CCCA

Shawn:<P>Thanks for your statement from the Indiana Region welcoming some of these fine and unusual automobiles. I support it completely, it is a great way to work around the stifling full classics list. But, as I'm sure some others will mention, it is technically a violation of the CCCA by-laws. There is states that non-classics cannot participate in CCCA events unless they are joint events or invitationals.<P>You probably have faced the same problem we have with our region, there is a real shortage of Classics along with members willing to drive them to our local events. Result for us is: no local events. But we do have a great pot luck once a year! And, by the way, when we did have driving events, often more than a few of our members would show up with non-classics.<P>Now what the blazes in an Avon? It sure sounds interesting...<P>Bill

Thanks Shawn and Buick Plus for your comments.<P>Actually, it <I>isn't</I> a violation of CCCA rules for you to show up in a non CCCA Classic at a <I>local</I> event. It's true, you can't participate at a National event with a non CCCA Classic, but the local Regions get to call the shots on what is acceptable at their functions. One event might be "Black Tie Required" while at another, "Shorts and a Tee Shirt" are just fine.<P>Most Regions are just happy to have you participate. I know that's the way mine is.(North Texas) As long as you have a sincere interest in these very special cars CCCA has designated as "Classics," we'd be happy to have you at any of our events, regardless of your current vehicular status. I think most Regions would echo the sentiment.<p>[ 06-21-2002: Message edited by: Chuck Conrad ]

Two posts in this section are so important, that I will break my "silence" and contribute again.<P>First, we find Shawn Miller, in MANAGEMENT of a Region of the CCCA, telling us <P> "THE ONLY REASON TO HAVE A FULL CLASSIC IS <BR> TO HAVE IT JUDGED".<P>How tragic that Mr. Miller's knowledge of true classics is so limited, that he could make such a statement. It would be unfair to pick on Mr. Miller individually - as others have pointed out, the "old guard" who actually enjoyed OPERATING the big classics cars is fading away. Fewer and fewer people are actually OPERATING the kind of cars this Club was originally devoted to; fewer and fewer are maintained in road-worthy condition. Fewer and fewer people have been exposed to the superiority of the true classic over the ordinary "collectable" of the classic era. So it is increasingly possible to make such nonsensical statements without either embarssement or fear of challange.<P>Of course the "special interest" cars of the 1930's are interesting and fun. But anyone who has gone from the driver's seat of one of these nice cars, to a Lincoln KB, a Packard Twelve, Cad. V-16..or any of the other "engineering exaggerations magnificently over-done" that this Club was created to focus on, knows why we have a CLASSIC Car Club Of America, and probably shares my view that we made a serious error, in, downt thru the years, gradually dilluting our Club's acceptability list with some very nice used cars, and some very nice people, that simply dont belong here, but for the desire of the owners to inflate their car's value so as to sell them.<P>In another "post" we find Mr. Conrad telling Mr. Miller it is perfectly all right for the Regions to have their own policy regarding non-classic cars participating in local events. I am waiting for either a retraction from Mr. Conrad, and/or a disclaimer confirming this may reflect the personal wishes of Mssrs. Miller and Conrad, but is NOT the policy of the CCCA.<P>For those of you who are active in your respective CCCA Regions, I respectfully suggest you review the section of your National Rules entitled "HANDBOOK FOR REGIONS", with particular attention to Section XII.<P>Given the fact that an increasing minority within the Classic Car Club Of America desire so strongly that our Club move away from its original purpose, and instead be little more than an advertising mechanism for old cars they desire to sell, perhaps Mr. Conrad and Mr. Miller would like to officially propose their desires at a National CCCA Board Meeting ?<P>Peter Hartmann<BR>Big Springs, AZ

Peter: As with evrything in live it changes every day. The same can be said of the CCCAthe clubis also bound to change with the times as new blod comes in.. I agre that alot of the Full Clasics are driven in very little. What it costs to restore some of these classics I can't say as I blame the owners. THESE CARS HAVE BEEN RESTORED COSTING GREAT AMOUNTS OF MONEY TO AQUIRE AND RESTORE. wHEN YOU HAVE A GREAT DEAL OF MONEY INVESTED IN A FULL CLASSIC YOU AREN'T GOING TO BE USING IT AS A DAILY DRIVER. Not everyone in the CCCA was able to aquire their Classic for less than $200.00 like you did. The American Classics you have named as being over engineered is HOG WASH. With what went on in countries like France and England even the cars built for the common people where engineered better than many American Classics. Cars like the Marmon V16's, Stutz DV32's, and the Duesy's these where the American Classics that where truly over engineered compaired to any other American Classics. As being a new member of the CCCA and not owning a FULL CLASSIC. I think I know more about the Full Classics and the history of the Golden Erea than you do. John Shireman Jersey Shore Pa. Owner of two CLASSICS of the heart a 1953 Packard and 1966 Chevy Chevelle.

Mr Hartman,<P>I am sorry you are so bent on having the last word, and persist in making sure we all know that the bug lodged strategically in your undershorts hurts dearly. <P>I really think you should watch what you say about people you dont know. I happen to DRIVE my full classics as much as possible. Yes, thats right I do own some. In fact, I cant think of a more difficult Full Classic to use as your driver than a Cord. I drive them to work, I drive them to church, I drive them to little league games, I drive them to pick up car shows and cruisins. I just love to drive my cars.<P>I know quite a bit about full classics since i have been reading the excellent national publications of this club religiously, cover to cover, since I was 14 (thats almost 30 years now). name a car...I can tell you quite a bit about it!<P>Even when i didnt have a full classic i loved being a member of this club if for no other reason than the publications. This is arguably the finest car club on the planet.<P>It aint broke, it doesnt need fixed.<P>Have a nice day!<P>

I assume Mr., Hartman is referring to the lines in the ?Handbook For Regions? that says, <I>"Events at the Regional level must reflect the same image to be representative of our Club, and be, therefore, acceptable. Where less than acceptable events occur in the Regions, there is no room for compromise, Regional Charters have been granted to the Regions with the understanding that those Regions will uphold the same aims, philosophies and policies as defined for the rest of the Club."</I><P>Mr. H interprets this verbiage in its strictest sense, choosing to ban certain cars from attending. While I'm sure that a few of members take this stance, generally speaking, our Regions do not take such a hard line position. It is their responsibility to determine what they consider acceptable and what they do not consider acceptable. <P>What you choose to define, as ?standards,? is probably the key question here. To most ACTIVE members of CCCA, holding high quality events that are fun and interesting to attend seems to be the norm. For people like my friend in Northern Arizona who has not been seen in a local activity in years, keeping non deserving cars away seems to be the Holy Grail. I assure you, it is more fun to attend your regional activities by any manner possible, than it is to stay at home. 99.9 percent of all CCCA members are really fascinating people who are very interesting to get to know. The only way you?ll ever get to know your fellow Club members is to attend our events.<P>It's a big world, and everyone is entitled to his opinion or interpretation of the Handbook. I can assure you that it does not specifically say that Non-CCCA Classic Cars are prohibited from Regional events. It doesn't invite them to show up either.<P>Meanwhile, my email box was full of messages this evening from CCCA members who asked me to block Mr. H's access to this Forum. I think that is a pretty significant barometer of opinion. <P>I make no apology or withdrawal.

Hail & farewell to the Northern Arizona contingent. Here in New England, where there is a very active CCCA Region, there are many members driving around in Classic cars. This weekend there is a 3 day event on Cape Cod that has been oversubscribed for some time. And, yes, there probably will be a couple of non-classic cars on this local event. They are not solicited nor are they banned. The NER publications illustrate only Full Classic cars (with rare exception). The National events sponsored by the NER are operated under the published rules, as closely as humanly possible. I believe that most other Regiuons do the same thing. I do know that Mr Miller has espoused the same line in his Region and is a dedicated Classic Car Club enthusiast.<BR>It is always dissapointing to hear the loudest complaints from the least informed. Then those more knowledgable members, like Shawn Miller and Chuck Conrad, must work doubly hard to undo the misinformation.<BR>That's enough preaching, I'm off to work. Today I will drive the 26 Bentley. Yesterday it was the 28 Packard 443 runabout. Tomorrow it will probably be a non-classic 37 Buick Raodmaster convertible sedan. What was that about CCCA members never driving these cars?<BR>Jon Lee

Thanks to Mr. Conrad for his typing in certain relevant portions of the RULES FOR REGIONS. As Mr. Conrad notes, our RULES are clear; the Club's stated policy applying both to National and Regional events, is<P> "NO COMPROMISE"<P>with our standards. <P>I am unclear as to where some of you got the idea that either I, or the Club,is opposed to people coming to CCCA Region events in non-classics. The tradition in sharing our historical interest in automobiles with other historical interest clubs (both automotive and non-automotive) goes back to our earliest days. <P>Both my old "home region" ( So. Calif) and my new "home Region" ( Ariz ) have been particularly active in having joint activities with other historical interest groups. Many of our members, myself included, own and operate all manner of wierd historical interest vehicles, and occasionaly drive them to local events both within and without the format of our local CCCA Regions. <P>I am also unclear as to where Mr. Conrad got his information from, that I have not recently attended "local" events. I just returned from So. Calif, where I attended the So. Calif. Region's traditional PAUL CERF event, which was held in conjunction with a historical aviation group in an aviation museum. I came in my old sea-plane.<P>I have in the past attended CCCA events in my '36 American La France fire engine. Just last night I joined other old car buff's in Prescott, Arizona's "free for all" old car event in northern Arizona's largest mall and public assembly area. My Packard Twelve was flanked on one side by a "low-boy" (replica '32 Ford hot rod ) and on the other side by a '38 Chevrolet "hot rod". Foward of me was a beautifully restored '28 Dodge sedan, which I am sure would, in terms of its restoration, score in the low 90's if it were a "Classic".. and in back of me was...hmm....let's see..I forget at the moment.<P>For further detail on how a Region can share our interest in historical vehicles, with other groups, please see our CCCA Handbook & Directory's SIGNIFICANT CLUB POLICY STATEMENTS, "Reaffirmation Statement Of Feb 8, 1983", under the paragraph heading "REAFFIRMATION STATEMENT". ( Some of you may be aware of why I think that section is so brilliantly written.....! )<P>As Mr. Contrad typed out,<P> " THERE IS NO ROOM FOR<BR> COMPROMISE " <P>The "CLUB POLICY STATEMENT" ( see First Column, numbered Paragraph (4) is clear<P> " THEREFORE, IT WILL CONTINUE TO BE<BR> THE POLICY THAT IN CALL CLUB EVENTS<BR> THE ONLY CARS ELEIGIBLE FOR <BR> PARTICIPATION WILL BE THOSE <BR> DESIGNATED IN THE CURRENT CLUB <BR> DIRECTORY AS CLASSIC CARS "<P>There is no basis that I am aware of, anywhere in our CLUB RULES, that suggests we are interested in ANY compromise with the Club's traditional determination to protect itself from "dilution". <P>Again, this Club's Rules were not designed to please the general public, nor was it designed to help those with old cars, to sell them. They were most certainly NOT designed with the idea that our focus should someday be changed to reflect changing tastes.<P>Obviously, some of you are dis-satisfied with our Club, its traditions, and those of us who support them. No one forces you to join our Club, nor come to our events. <P>The best answer for those of you who are uncomfortable with our Club's positions, is that implied in our POLICY STATEMENT OF DEC 2, 1956, where, we politely invite those who dont "get it" to go join the kind of club whose policies meet your needs.<P>Peter Hartmann<BR>Big Springs AZ

TYPO ERROR !<P>A sentence above, quoting from the CCCA RULES, is that in <P> ALL ( not "call") Club events,<BR> only CCCA approved classics<BR> may participate <P>(again...this is a free country..who is to say HOW you GET to a CCCA event...as I noted above..I show up sometimes in some pretty wild vehicles...!)<P>However, once there, if you wish to PARTICIPATE with an automobile, that will have to be a CCCA approved classic. <P>Those Regions that may have erroneously been permitting non classics to PARTICIPATE in their Region events, would do well to halt this practice, as it is in DIRECT VIOLATION of CCCA Regs. <P>The Illinois Region for years put on its ALLSTATE event, which is a model for how a CCCA Region can share our interest in historical - era vehicles, and still be in compliance with CCCA "RULES FOR REGIONS".<P>My own personal opinon, is that CCCA Regions not comfortable with CCCA policy, i.e. who ARE allowing NON classics to PARTICIPATE in ( again, as distinguished from ATTENDING) their events would do well to consider whether this is the right Club for their needs and wishes. Changing affiliation to some other car club would seem the appropriate course for such Regions.

Mr. PH, for a gentleman who says he is voluntarily not participating anymore on the forum you sure do your share of tongue wagging. When can we expect you to stop "participating" again? When Hades has a snowstorm?

Oh know! I have really done it this time! <P>I guess the Indiana Region just better hook up with the ferrari club since our charter is sure to be pulled over this grevious offense.<P>Oh well, so much for rising to director next year for me. Guess I better find another club to push my wannabe hidden agenda upon.<P>Damn! and I was certain I could get the pinto approved for full classic status after just a few more years of hard work and participation.<P>Shawn Miller<BR>big goat<BR>Indiana Region

Anyone know where I can get a shipping crate cheap.....I hear there are some nice, friendly, broad minded Regions east of me...I always wanted to participate in a CCCA event with my Sears Riding/Lawn Mower.....! I want to properly "crate" it so as not to risk scratching that "classic" finish...... ( those nasty guys out in the various western regions wont let me participate with my Sears Riding Mower on this side of the Missouri River.....they keep whining about some damn fool silly RULES FOR REGIONS....what party poopers....!) <P>Pete Hartmann<BR>Big Springs, AZ