1947 olds restoration

Hi,<P>This probably isn't the right forum for your question, since a '47 Olds, while a very nice car, isn't one of the cars CCCA recognizes. You might have better luck at the AACA Discussion Forum. You can "Hop To It" at the bottom of this page. Then again, one of our Internet visitors might have answers for you.<P>Good luck in your research.

go to the OCA website - there's help available!

about the guy with the "classic" '47 Oldsmobile......!<P>I think we CCCA "old timers" should swallow our laughfter...and think reflectively for a moment...and then smile with PRIDE !<P>Just how DID the word "classic" become such a part of the vocabulary of every auto buff...heck..EVERYTHING is "classic" these days....(current definition of the word "classic"....I have something...and want to sell it....! )<P>WE DID IT. Yes...when our founding members came to the conclusion the "super luxury" cars of the late 1920's thru early 1940's were worth saving, they searched around for a word that would help people understand WHY we felt these magnificent engineering monuments. We needed a word/phrase that would summarize the difference between the ordinary old car, and the "egineering masterpiece..magnificantly over-done".<P>At the time our Club was formed, educational standards were higher. At that time, the typical college graduate knew that the "classics", meant something "unique, of the highest standard of excellence". They knew from a study of ancient Greece and Rome, that "classic" when applied to design, meant "form follows function". <P>Thus the "classic" car was one in which a fender followed its form and function, a hood, a head-light, each had a separate form defined by its function. These people felt this word "classic", not in common use at the time, would most clearly summarize the nature of the cars we were, within the purpose of THIS particular Club, desirious of preserving. Obviously, the "moderne" or "streamlined" school of design, in which hoods, fenders, headlights, all "melted together", celebrated the design theory of the STREAM LINED era, and thus it follows that a stream-lined car by definition cannot possibly be a "classic".<P>Well....it worked...slowly at first, by the early 1960's, looking at our media (television shows, comic stage routines, etc) you see fewer and fewer references to people who like classic cars, as being nuts (look at early I LOVE LUCY shows, and note the several shows that center around LUCY being "nuts" because she got involved with a classic automobile ! )<P>We DID it. We got people to like the word "classic" ....to an extent far beyond our wildest dreams !.<P>I do not doubt for a moment the person calling their old Oldsmobile, orChevrolet, or Edsel station wagon LIKES the word "classic". MOST of them know full well what a REAL "classic" car is, and the proof of it is, how ANGRY they get when you "call" them on their use of the word "classic" to describe something they are trying to sell.<P>But..let's put this all in perspective...we WON ! I doubt if you could find many car buffs today ...who dont know EXACTLY what a REAL "classic" automobile is. The fact that they like to use the word so much, simply shows how successful we in the CCCA have been, to publisize the inherent value of the REAL "classic" car !<P>Pete Hartmann<BR>Big Springs, AZ

Classic and Streamlined are not exclusive terms. Consider Meadowbrook's theme last year, and a number of cars clearly fit both. Initial efforts at streamlining transportation of all types were a big part of industrial design between the wars.

Yes..I agree..automobile designers started moving away from "classic" theory of design and towards the "moderne" or "stream line" concept of design WELL before our entry into the Second World War. <P>Some interesting examples are the 810 Cord, and the "Airflow" series Chrysler products, and both are now considered "classics" by the Classic Car Club Of America.<P>I am not clear, however, what "Unregs. Bill" thinks is 'fantasy'. If he is not familiar with those beautiful advertisements for the "uppper class" cars that appeared in FORTUNE MAGAZINE during the classic era, I strongly recommend he take a look at them; they help give a "taste" of what the thinking was during that era. They are so beautiful, and so rich with the "aroma" of that era, that I had some of them framed. The partiuclar text I quoted in my "post" above was one of several from the 1938 series of Packard Twelve ads. The advertising firm that prepared this (Young and Rubican) had a knack of catching the "flair" of how the upper classes saw themselves during the classic era.<P>As for as the author Robert J. Gottlieb goes; I recall the "fuss" his books (attempting to explain WHAT we meant by "classic car" ) made when it hit the auto sections of local news-stands. Even in the earliest years, there were people with lessor cars who were most unhappy about the "elitist" stand taken by the Classic Car Club Of America.<P>Which reminds me of a famous quote..by a "high society" lady of that era...<P> " I WANT VERY LITTLE OUT OF LIFE....<BR> ONLY THE BEST....AND THERE IS<BR> SO LITTLE...OF THAT....! "<P>Pete Hartmann<BR>Big Springs, AZ

Unregistered...yes..I agree with you..in part...to people who want to SELL you something, or people who just plain like to exaggerate, AND assuming they are not educated into the technical meaning of words..(or just dont care)....they DO confuse the "classic" school of design...with the "moderene" / art deco / stream lined" schools of design. Thus it is perfectly logical to the fellow who wants to fix up and get rid of an old ordinary car, to call it a "classic". Remember...this is a free country, and NOBODY has a right to tell you what to day (any more than THEY have no right to object if you point out how silly they are....!)<P>To get a better perspective of what the Classic Car Club Of America was originally all about, may I suggest " CLASSIC CARS AND ANTIQUES" by Robert J. Gottlieb. He was one of the founders of the Classic Car Club's western activities, and was a prolific writer about things relating to what we were trying to say when we said "classic". <P>And we said it so well...just LOOK....I dont think you can pick up a car buff magazine any more that is not full of "classic" old cars...! <P>The REAL "true" classic car, was the "best of the best"...the super-powered luxury cars of the late 1920's up thru the start of World War Two. <P>One writer during the formative years of the Classic Car Club of America, coined the phrase, in trying to explain the difference between the ordinary old car of the classic era, and the true classic automobile...was the following..<P> " ENGINEERING EXAGGERATIONS..MAGNIFICENTLY<BR> OVER DONE".<P>That an ordinary 8 cyl. Packard or Cadillac from that time period is a good car, good buy for the money, and well suited to what its new owners wanted it for, cannot be argued. But that a Cadillac V-12, or V-16, or Packard Twelve, is clearly superior, is also obvious to anyone even remotely informed about the technology of that era.<P>And that these cars were SO magnificent, that even today, they STILL generate awe, and, yes...jealousy, can be seen by just slipping behind the crowd watching a REAL classic at some car show....and listen to the remarks. Invariably you will hear "well...they over heated."...or "they weren't that fast"...etc...etc. typical of people who just cant handle the fact that somewhere...there is someone with a "bigger" one..."longer one"...more powerful one...etc.<P>The arrogance of the upper class can be seen in the FORTUNE MAGAZINE ( believe it was the March 1938 issue)....advertsiement for my own car - a '38 480 cubic in. engine which came STOCK with roller tappets, and wedge shaped pistons......<P> " Such a man (referring to the elite)<BR> should make no mistake about the fact<BR> that there is no substitute for size,<BR> weight, and power, when it comes to<BR> automotive satisfaction, or reflecting<BR> the dignity of his social position".<P>Looking back from TODAY's times and outlook, the classic era, and the "upper class", their attitudes, and their choice of automobiles, seems out of place. It is!<P>So what....that is the way it WAS...and yelling "classic" at the top of your lungs at some ordinary and/or modern car, or displaying the word "classic" at a modern car show, often tells us more about the person carrying on like that..than it does about the cars on display.<P>It is a free country...we are free to express ourselves and seem as intelligent, or as silly as we wish !<P>Pete Hartmann<BR>Big Springs, AZ

Mr. Split55555<P>Don't waste the band width. Much of what is said here by some is uninformed opinion posing as fact, fuzzy memory or simple fantasy. Unfortunate for the hobby but that's just the way it is.

Instead of trotting out the same old babble again, look at those horrible Delage and Delahaye at Meadowbrook with their "art moderne" bodies by Saoutchik and Fagoni et Falaschi claiming to be classics. Tsk, tsk.

For Unreg. 555<P>Excellent point ! I think I know which cars you are referring to - and yes...there are elements of "art deco" in their lines...but, I think you would have to agree...assuming we are talking about the same cars, that the basic front-end lay-out is still "classic"...in that separate fenders...hood, grill, head lights..each defined by their function ( form follows function).<P>PFH

No, I don't agree. Some of these bodies have grilles and headlights integrated into the front sheetmetal, as do your examples of the 36-7 Cord and the 34 Airflow. Separate functional parts are a characteristic shared with all pre-Classic cars, simply because the designs had not yet evolved further. Punt.

Unregis BILL in a recent post indicates he thinks my memory is faulty as to what the classic era was all about, and how it came to be defined by the CCCA. <P>Unreg 555 correctly points out there are inconsistancies in what we call "classic". I have no answer, other to agree how excellant and widely lauded the designs he discusses are. I suspect Unreg. 555 would agree these most certainly were designed for the "upper upper" elite class...!<P>As for Unreg. Bill's questioning of my recollections, I went over to my den wall and looked again at my framed ads for my own classic ( a '38 Packard Twelve ). These ads were typical of the "theme" utilized by many advertisements of the various makes of "super luxury" cars we now call "classic". I do not have, but recall distinctly, the famous Dusenburg ad....showing NOTHING but a very elegantly dressed obviously extremely wealthy man in a lavicously appointed den....the only text being...<BR> " HE DRIVES A DUESENBURG...". <P>Talk about REEKING with the "arrogance of power"..! <P>I did notice something interesting about one of my Packard Twelve ads from the 1938 series prepared for Fortune Magazine by the famous New York advertising agency Young And Rubican). The ad for my particular car (a series 1607 Formal Sedan) is the one with that arrogant language<BR> " THERE IS NO SUBSTITUTE FOR WEIGHT,<BR> SIZE, AND POWER WHEN IT COMES TO<BR> REFLECTING THE DIGNITY OF YOUR <BR> POSITION..."<P>But there is another ad, showing a town-car body style (also based on the Series 1607 body) which is directed towards WOMEN ! One wouldn't have expected to see a touch of feminism amongst all that ....but..there is is...the text...<P> THE WOMAN OF SOCIAL PROMINENCE CANNOT<BR> AND SHOULD NOT CHOOSE HER MOTOR CAR<BR> AS OTHERS DO. SHE MUST HAVE MORE THAN<BR> MERE TRANSPORTATION. IT MUST POSSESS<BR> THE DISTINCTION AND PRESITEGE BEFITTING<BR> HER LEADERSHIP IN THE COMMUNITY...<P>A review of the advertising of all the great classics shows various sides of the cultural "caste system" that died in this country for a number of reasons, not the least of which were the technical improvements in auto technology that started making the classics obsolete the day they rolled off the assembly line.<P>As for the early years of the CCCA, it is interesting to note that from the very start, slowly at first, but then, quickly reaching a cresendo, car enthusiasts recognized the significance of the word "classic", and wanted THEIR car included in our list. I wrote a number of articles down thru the years opposing "broadening" our definition, and I usually lost ! THEN. However, it looks like "conservatism" has returned to the CCCA, and there will be, for the forseeable future, no further violations of our tradition.<P>Sic Temper Gloriius.<P><BR>Pete Hartmann<BR>Big Springs AZ

Peter:<P>Your rants continue to disturb me. You use to use the most innocuous questions posted to spew your automotove elitism, often with innacurate information.<P>Anyone who thinks the "cultural caste system" died at end of the classic era has not read your posts. It is obvious that it is alive and well amonst some members of the CCCA.<P>I hope BCstucky gets some useful information about how to restore his '47 Olds. At this point, I would rather see that '47 Olds on the road than idolizing a few Packard V-12's or DuesenbErgs.

Buick Plus...<P>Thank you for your honesty...your admission that you "would rather see a '47 Olds on the road" than one of those nasty elitist cars...shows us where YOUR preferences are...GOOD FOR YOU...this is a free country..I could not agree more that each of us has a RIGHT to prefer that which is most agreeable to us...!<P>Fact remains...this IS the CLASSIC Car Club Of America portion of this site, and I think I took the correct approach in suggesting to the fellow with the '47 Olds, that there isn't much we could do for him in here. <P>Again, please dont think I am "against" ordinary old cars. They just don't do much for me ! If you were a little more familiar with how exceptional the REAL "classics" were, how they differed from the ordinary old car of their era technically, from a qualitative standpoint, performance, etc. then you might have a better understanding of why we felt it was so important to preserve them. Which, in turn, explains why we got together to have a Club exclusively for them.<P>If you ever find yourself in my area, look me up - would love to have you drive my Packard Twelve, go over some of the more interesting technical aspects, and see what you think ! And I'll buy lunch !<P>Prescott, Arizona, is about two hours drive north of Phoenix, and we are about 40 mins. drive north of Prescott...OR....if you were driving cross country on Interstate 40 (what we old-timers used to know as U.S. Highway 66) we are only about 30 minutes SOUTH on Arizona Highway 89 from the old rail-road watering town of Ash Fork.<P>PFH

Peter: The fellow was just asking for help. He never mentioned the word classic in his post. The second post was answered his his question as to where to go for help. Your posts were uncalled for. Just remeber I know what you have done to your car from prior posts and the purchase cost. Just because you own a Classic and inpose that fact on everyone. You are small fish in the world of the Classic car big hitters and spenders. Whom put there money where there mouth is and spend vast amounts of money bring their Classic back totheir former glory for all to see. When was the last time you did a full and complete restoration to your 1938 Packard 12. What is the most points that your car has ever scored at an CCCA meet. Which one of the great custome body builders of the time, built the body for your.

Hi John !<P>As to one of your points..yeah..you are correct..I am one SMALL "fish" ! I don' think my Packard Twelve would win a contest in a dog fight. It is just a well-maintained used car...( WELL used...!)<P>It still has the original upholstery (serviceable, but starting to show its age), and I did its last paint job over 20 years ago (at least to factory standards, using orig. grade materials, even an authentic old style spray gun.....but...that was 20 years ago...! So there are a couple of cracks in the paint..some stone chips..etc. Chrome is still good - I keep it waxed...last time I had the shutters and bumpers re-chromed...30 years ago...!<P>John...I do have the money for a full restoration...if that is what I wanted to do. But it isnt going to happen...I just "blew" nearly a quarter of a million dollars changing airplanes (always wanted an amphib...and owning one..is a blast and a half". <P>You see..John.."different stroke...for different folk". There is NO question in my mind...that if I did put my own "classic" into jewelery-case condition, I wouldn't enjoy it near as much. Sure.. a "100 point restoration" is pretty to LOOK at...but to really enjoy a fully restored car, you have to be of the kind of personality that thrives on, needs and/or places value on having it as a stationary exhibit at some car show. I have NO argument with my friends who DO do that to their cars...and who then trailer them around. Of COURSE..it would be NUTS to take a properly and fully restored car out on the highway on an icy rainy night...or out on one of our long high desert stretches, and beat the crap out of it..heck..I've got miles of deeply rutted dirt roads (which that Safety-Flex suspension handles BETTER and FASTER than modern cars...!) just to get to a paved road ! ( my ranch is isolated )<P>Right now, the Twelve is COVERED with dust from my last screaming ride into town.. (..hasnt rained up here for months )( yes..I have a modern dust filter hidden inside the orig. factory air cleaner...! ).<P>So you see...John...we car buffs are all..just a little bit MORE than a little NUTS. I get my pleasure out of USING the thing...my personality is such that I am really not interested in what a bunch of pansies at a car show think of it. In fact, I do go to a lot of car shows, to see the nicely restored cars, and swap "tall tales" with my fellow car buffs - which is rewarding and fun no matter WHAT kind of car they show up in.<P>But...John...dont critisize me for the way I enjoy my car. That we car buffs are NUTS is beyond question...we just express our being nuts in different ways...!<P>Remember, I got into loving big engined classics at a time when the average person was at best dis-interested in them..if not out-right hostile...! ( which leads us back to why the Classic Car Club Of America got started )! In my formative years.. in those years..I just didnt get "programmed" to care about what the average person thought of my car...or I wouldnt have saved it in the first place...!<P>Now...the guy who came in here with the '47 Olds....John...get REAL...he didnt READ what this particular "site" is all about....it is VERY clear that in THIS particular site..we are not about "your father's Oldsmobile"....! As I noted, in a spirit of cooperation, we all need to help each other. But...bottom line...discussions about "rdinary old cars".belong in the "ordinary old car" section..NOT HERE !<P>John...dont forget my offer...if you are ever in the area..get your butt up here and we will do lunch. Love to see your '53...and love to see the expression on your face when you drive a less than 100 point...but PROPERLY maintained...Packard Twelve...!<P>Pete Hartmann

Mr. Hartman, I've read all your posts and would like to ask one question. If you have been involved with Classics since the dawn of the club, why, of all things, do you have a late 1930's four door sedan? I no longer have my 1928 443 Packard roadster, that sir, was a CLASSIC. What great Classics did you pass up over the years?

For '37 ( who asks what great classics I passed up...)<P>LOTS ! Unfortunately, although I had a deep HUNGER for classics, by the mid 1950's, the values of open classics had gone out of sight. A car like your 443 roadster in decent shape, in the mid 1950's, would have felt the "price inflation" that was a result of the activities of the Classic Car Club Of America. Even early on, the word "classic" that we picked, turned out to be "catchy", and pretty soon..just about EVERYBODY in the old car hobby, even if they didn't want to have anything to do with a classic car, wanted big bucks for them.<P>By the mid 1950's, a decent 443 roadster would have been worth several hundred dollars. As a teen ager, I couldnt DREAM of that much money. I did get my hands on twenty five bucks, and thus I was able to afford a less desireable car ( a late 1930's closed car (as you may know..a Packard V-12).<P>So..your inference is correct...LOTS of great cars that I COULD have had (if I had the mone) got away - some to the "crusher"...some to Mike McManus's "Classic Car Junk Yard" in Gardena, California, where they were cannabalized for parts, and some are on exhibit today.<P>As an exampe, a early 1930's Duse. phaeton came on the market for about nine hundred dollars. It would be about an 85 pointer by current CCCA standards (meaning reasonably sharp looking and a good "driver", but getting a little tired if you looked close).<P>Nine hundred dollars ! Get real ! I told my dad he should buy it for an investment..I recall my famous words.."Pop..the CCCA is making the significance of classic cars known to the public...in a few years..this car will be worth FIVE THOUSAND dollars....!"<P>Hey...man..dont rub it in...again..LOTS of cars I would dearly love to service properly, and then take out and "rough up" ...got away !<P>Pete Hartmann

I really do admire the "high end" CCCA Full Classics, but I will probably never own one. I'm perfectly happy with my non-show quality Auburn, Cord and Bentley. Being naturally "thrifty" I just don't want to part with the kind of money it would take, even though history tells me that buyinq quality usually pays off. <P>I prefer to not look at cars as just an investment (although there certainly are financial ramifications). Instead, I choose to look at them as a hobby. As such, it's been a rewarding experience for me. I get enjoyment not from just the cars I own, but also from the fascinating people I've met because of them.<P>Although I'm not a candidate for some of the really elite cars, I am VERY happy there are folks who are willing to buy and restore them. Someone needs to preserve these cars for us (and future generations) to enjoy. I applaud those who have the interest and where-with-all to do it. Remember, we're just custodians of history.<P>In reality, most CCCA members do not own amazingly expensive cars. There is a long list of CCCA Full Classics that do not cost an arm and a leg. When new, they cost less than some of the ultra-luxury cars of the era, but they were still many times the price of a standard mass produced car like a Ford or Chevrolet. <P>Oddly, today some Fords and Chevrolets sell for more than these really amazing cars of the Classic Era. There is a long list that can be had for way less than the price of a good '57 Thunderbird.<P>In the eyes of some, these affordable Classics are "entry level" cars, but they are still CCCA recognized Full Classics. As such, they are as welcome in the Club as any other car that can be found on the "CCCA Approved Classic" list. Most can be a lot of fun to own and drive. Your choice of cars is a personal decision. <P>While we all admire the extreme upper end cars, there is much more to CCCA than that.